warming up?

Krem · 10-19-2009, 06:55 PM

Before my car died and had to be repaired, it ran great... any given time of the day I could go out, fire her up and drive away... since I've got her back from the shop, she seems a bit sluggish, bogged down in a sense... but I've noticed she runs better when the coolant system warms up some. Infact, it's soo bad that in the mornings now, my car doesn't seem to want to start and stay running, I have to depress the gas much like I am trying to start up a carb. engine w/ no choke.. They ran diagnostic tests and found nothing wrong with the car, so their next step (before arriving at the problem of a snapped distributor) was to pull the o2 sensor and check exhaust systems.

Guess my question here is... do these fuel injected engines need a warm up period like carbs do? or could it be misinstallation of the o2 in the exhaust system that is creating these issues? it's just unsettling cause my car broke down on my way into work a few weeks ago and every morning I go to leave, she tries dying out a couple of times before I get out of my apartment complex. I don't know what to think cause I wasn't having this problem before taking it in, but unless I can prove they did something, they'll want to charge me shop fees, labor and all the other crap that comes with it. Though they're likely to pull that routine regardless if I know for sure what's going on... but I'd rather have some ammo to use than none at all.

CanadianBak'inSupra · 10-20-2009, 12:49 AM

i myself dont usually drive away until the car has been running for around 5 mins

im not posative but i dont think its good to do much more than putt along while cold in cold weather until you get "some" heat off your temp gauge...

cre · 10-20-2009, 02:29 AM

There is a warm up period. The ECU doesn't start adjusting the fuel flow from anything beyond what the static map says until the coolant sensor says the engine is up to temp. This results in the car running rich as a safety measure.

Have you had the ignition timing checked? If you're having this problem only when the car is cold it's possible the temp sensor is not providing an accurate reading until it's in the higher temp range. As I've mentioned before, the timing is also suspect. The ECU uses a different ignition timing map when the engine is cold and as a result if your timing is off it may be WAY off when running cold.

Krem · 10-20-2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cre

If you're having this problem only when the car is cold it's possible the temp sensor is not providing an accurate reading until it's in the higher temp range. As I've mentioned before, the timing is also suspect. The ECU uses a different ignition timing map when the engine is cold and as a result if your timing is off it may be WAY off when running cold.

Wh00t, you the man Cre... or woman if the rarity applies... I just recently fixed my plug to the sensor in the thermostat.. before, one of the connections was broke and shoved up inside the plug, possibly not making contact at all... however, after fixing the plug to the sensor, I notice my coolant temp gauge goes up slowly as the water warms up, rather than just jumping up to the middle automatically... However, it doesn't go past half way, regardless how hot the liquid might be... I can smell that burning coolant smell, engine will stay pretty hot for an hour after I park it from a 30 mile drive.. so I have a hunch I'm running hoter than the gauge says, and pretty sure it's not over heating as there's no steam to be found anywhere... however, I think I am running rich once my coolant is warmer than the gauge says it is... so perhaps a new sensor in the thermostat housing should fix this?

cre · 10-20-2009, 03:42 AM

That burning coolant smell means you're loosing coolant and it's most likely hitting the exhaust. The ECU coolant temp sensor is not the same as the gauge's temp sensor... they each have their own.

Click image for larger version

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Krem · 10-20-2009, 05:03 AM

Hmmmm, that picture is VERY helpfull... apparently what I did fix WAS the ECU sensor... which explains why this wanting to die out feeling when the engine is cold just began when I fixed that. I'm honestly hoping the BVSV is for a blow of valve because I have nothing at that point, the two green things the orange hoses are hooked up to terminate right there... no hoses. Guess I'll have to check the gauge sensor when I have light tomorrow...

As for the burning coolant smell, I actually smell it up near the main hose connecting the thermostat to the radiator... and to the right side of the radiator, close to the front right headlight... don't think I'm loosing coolant tho as my level in the radiator is at the cap any time I check it cold, and the overflow isn't boiling or filling up when I check it hot.

I've just assumed the smell is coming from the hot coolant being pushed back into the radiator since I have no fan shroud and the water is probably not cooling as well as it should be... believe you me, once I get all my leaks and kinks fixed, an alum. radiator w/ dual elec fans in one shroud will replace my crank fan and radiator in there now.. but I guess I'll need to get a radiator for the transmission cooling too... dunno where that's gunna go, I've already got the one for oil? in front of my current radiator now.. Even worse, this car was a manual converted to auto... no, I didn't get that backwards... and I have no idea why someone would do such a thing... but it leaves me wondering if my radiator is cooling my transmission fluid at all as is.. :\

As you can see, I still got lots to learn, but you gave a great visual aid

thank you

edit:
ok, so I still dunno what a BVSV stands for, but I figured out it relates with my EGR system, if I had it connected... but I find this peculiar as the car passed smog just before I bought it... and I didn't remove the hoses to the BVSV...

cre · 10-20-2009, 05:15 AM

Skip the electric fans, for some reason no one has much luck with those instals and besides, that much current draw makes the alternator work that much harder which makes it harder to rotate.

If you think the stock fan causes too much resistance then look into a flex-a-lite fan, as they spin faster they flatten out reducing resistance... you'll need a different fan clutch too, the stock fan clutch would destroy the fan.

If you smell burning coolant, it's getting out of the cooling system... period. Find the leak.

cre · 10-20-2009, 05:33 AM

Oh, I forgot to mention: A missing fan shroud may cause overheating while you're sitting at a stop light, but moving at anything over 20MPH the missing shroud isn't the problem.

The BVSV is part of the charcoal canister's plumbing. The CC is the big canister right behind the passenger side wheel well (looks like a little black barrel with two nipples on top. If it's missing you should fix it, it serves much more of a purpose than some people seem to think.

Here, it's the black can in the top of this pic:

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Krem · 10-20-2009, 05:46 AM

yup yup, only time I smell the hot coolant smell is when I'm sitting at a light, or drive thru, or something else... doing 45-50 down the road, not soo much... but I'm also worried of working the engine too hard (70 mph at 3500 rpm) and generating heat that way... am I still good cause I'm moving? or do I have right to be leery and cautious in my accelerating at high speeds?

As for the Canister, I have that... two black hoses plugged into each end... not sure where one end goes, but the other comes back around and into my air intake tube.. reading the explanation of the EGR, this makes sense... but I'm just confused why the BVSV is on the thermostat housing if I can just plug the purge to my intake... I can't wait to get some pics to post... would make this much easier, and I can show of to my friends that aren't local

cre · 10-20-2009, 06:21 AM

You need to be cautions no matter what the driving conditions until you get the coolant leak taken care of. If you suddenly dump a ton of coolant while pounding on it and overheat you could do major damage. Smelling it when stopped only means that you're out running the vapors while the car is moving.. doesn't mean a thing.. other than YOU HAVE A LEAK.

As for the CC, the proper routing is for the purge outlet to run to the upper nipple of the BVSV and then from the lower nipple of the BVSV to the throttle body. Running it directly to the throttle body puts the CC under vacuum all the time which isn't really something you want as it route back to the gas tank (which you don't want under negative pressure as much as you don't want it under positive pressure). The way you have it routed right now is fine for a temporary measure if you BVSV is broken (it's not uncommon for the nipples to break off when they're this old). But it can also contribute to excessive richness in the air to fuel ratio.

With regard to the over heating, you've got a coolant leak, that's a given. You're seeing an increase while stationary due to the missing cowl, another given. One more thing to check is your ignition timing... too much of an advance or too much of a pull and your engine temps can skyrocket.
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=20
A warn timing belt can contribute to improper ignition timing as well, but let's worry about that possibility later.

10-19-2009, 06:55 PM	#1
Krem 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 167	warming up? Before my car died and had to be repaired, it ran great... any given time of the day I could go out, fire her up and drive away... since I've got her back from the shop, she seems a bit sluggish, bogged down in a sense... but I've noticed she runs better when the coolant system warms up some. Infact, it's soo bad that in the mornings now, my car doesn't seem to want to start and stay running, I have to depress the gas much like I am trying to start up a carb. engine w/ no choke.. They ran diagnostic tests and found nothing wrong with the car, so their next step (before arriving at the problem of a snapped distributor) was to pull the o2 sensor and check exhaust systems. Guess my question here is... do these fuel injected engines need a warm up period like carbs do? or could it be misinstallation of the o2 in the exhaust system that is creating these issues? it's just unsettling cause my car broke down on my way into work a few weeks ago and every morning I go to leave, she tries dying out a couple of times before I get out of my apartment complex. I don't know what to think cause I wasn't having this problem before taking it in, but unless I can prove they did something, they'll want to charge me shop fees, labor and all the other crap that comes with it. Though they're likely to pull that routine regardless if I know for sure what's going on... but I'd rather have some ammo to use than none at all.

10-20-2009, 05:03 AM	#6
Krem 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 167	Hmmmm, that picture is VERY helpfull... apparently what I did fix WAS the ECU sensor... which explains why this wanting to die out feeling when the engine is cold just began when I fixed that. I'm honestly hoping the BVSV is for a blow of valve because I have nothing at that point, the two green things the orange hoses are hooked up to terminate right there... no hoses. Guess I'll have to check the gauge sensor when I have light tomorrow... As for the burning coolant smell, I actually smell it up near the main hose connecting the thermostat to the radiator... and to the right side of the radiator, close to the front right headlight... don't think I'm loosing coolant tho as my level in the radiator is at the cap any time I check it cold, and the overflow isn't boiling or filling up when I check it hot. I've just assumed the smell is coming from the hot coolant being pushed back into the radiator since I have no fan shroud and the water is probably not cooling as well as it should be... believe you me, once I get all my leaks and kinks fixed, an alum. radiator w/ dual elec fans in one shroud will replace my crank fan and radiator in there now.. but I guess I'll need to get a radiator for the transmission cooling too... dunno where that's gunna go, I've already got the one for oil? in front of my current radiator now.. Even worse, this car was a manual converted to auto... no, I didn't get that backwards... and I have no idea why someone would do such a thing... but it leaves me wondering if my radiator is cooling my transmission fluid at all as is.. :\ As you can see, I still got lots to learn, but you gave a great visual aid thank you edit: ok, so I still dunno what a BVSV stands for, but I figured out it relates with my EGR system, if I had it connected... but I find this peculiar as the car passed smog just before I bought it... and I didn't remove the hoses to the BVSV... Last edited by Krem; 10-20-2009 at 05:15 AM.

10-20-2009, 12:49 AM	#2
CanadianBak'inSupra Official hall monitor / search nazi - NO SOUP FOR YOU! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Canada, BC Posts: 837	i myself dont usually drive away until the car has been running for around 5 mins im not posative but i dont think its good to do much more than putt along while cold in cold weather until you get "some" heat off your temp gauge...

10-20-2009, 02:29 AM	#3
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	There is a warm up period. The ECU doesn't start adjusting the fuel flow from anything beyond what the static map says until the coolant sensor says the engine is up to temp. This results in the car running rich as a safety measure. Have you had the ignition timing checked? If you're having this problem only when the car is cold it's possible the temp sensor is not providing an accurate reading until it's in the higher temp range. As I've mentioned before, the timing is also suspect. The ECU uses a different ignition timing map when the engine is cold and as a result if your timing is off it may be WAY off when running cold.

10-20-2009, 03:42 AM	#5
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	That burning coolant smell means you're loosing coolant and it's most likely hitting the exhaust. The ECU coolant temp sensor is not the same as the gauge's temp sensor... they each have their own.

10-20-2009, 05:15 AM	#7
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	Skip the electric fans, for some reason no one has much luck with those instals and besides, that much current draw makes the alternator work that much harder which makes it harder to rotate. If you think the stock fan causes too much resistance then look into a flex-a-lite fan, as they spin faster they flatten out reducing resistance... you'll need a different fan clutch too, the stock fan clutch would destroy the fan. If you smell burning coolant, it's getting out of the cooling system... period. Find the leak.

10-20-2009, 05:33 AM	#8
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	Oh, I forgot to mention: A missing fan shroud may cause overheating while you're sitting at a stop light, but moving at anything over 20MPH the missing shroud isn't the problem. The BVSV is part of the charcoal canister's plumbing. The CC is the big canister right behind the passenger side wheel well (looks like a little black barrel with two nipples on top. If it's missing you should fix it, it serves much more of a purpose than some people seem to think. Here, it's the black can in the top of this pic:

10-20-2009, 05:46 AM	#9
Krem 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 167	yup yup, only time I smell the hot coolant smell is when I'm sitting at a light, or drive thru, or something else... doing 45-50 down the road, not soo much... but I'm also worried of working the engine too hard (70 mph at 3500 rpm) and generating heat that way... am I still good cause I'm moving? or do I have right to be leery and cautious in my accelerating at high speeds? As for the Canister, I have that... two black hoses plugged into each end... not sure where one end goes, but the other comes back around and into my air intake tube.. reading the explanation of the EGR, this makes sense... but I'm just confused why the BVSV is on the thermostat housing if I can just plug the purge to my intake... I can't wait to get some pics to post... would make this much easier, and I can show of to my friends that aren't local

10-20-2009, 06:21 AM	#10
cre Toyota Racing Development Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,038	You need to be cautions no matter what the driving conditions until you get the coolant leak taken care of. If you suddenly dump a ton of coolant while pounding on it and overheat you could do major damage. Smelling it when stopped only means that you're out running the vapors while the car is moving.. doesn't mean a thing.. other than YOU HAVE A LEAK. As for the CC, the proper routing is for the purge outlet to run to the upper nipple of the BVSV and then from the lower nipple of the BVSV to the throttle body. Running it directly to the throttle body puts the CC under vacuum all the time which isn't really something you want as it route back to the gas tank (which you don't want under negative pressure as much as you don't want it under positive pressure). The way you have it routed right now is fine for a temporary measure if you BVSV is broken (it's not uncommon for the nipples to break off when they're this old). But it can also contribute to excessive richness in the air to fuel ratio. With regard to the over heating, you've got a coolant leak, that's a given. You're seeing an increase while stationary due to the missing cowl, another given. One more thing to check is your ignition timing... too much of an advance or too much of a pull and your engine temps can skyrocket. http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=20 A warn timing belt can contribute to improper ignition timing as well, but let's worry about that possibility later.