car suddenly wont start - never ran great anyway, esp. cold, now cranks, but won't st

[rjSupra]

Thanks El Supracabra, I like the forum name!

Thanks for the links. That's next on my battery of tests to run on this troublesome car.

I pulled the CPS before, inspected it, it looks good. Replaced stupid seal that was leaking a lot while there so my motor is a lot cleaner now. I set the CPS in the correct way per TSRM.

EDIT: I GUESS I JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SET UP THE GUN. My friend told me I did it wrong, so I will try that again the right way tomorrow night. (oops).

But my car is weak as a kitten and seems to be getting worse. Before it always started reliably, at least before it got really cold in the winter. And I need to really press the accelerator to move the car and I still don't keep up with normal traffic unless I hammer it and am boosting on the Turbo a lot.

[rjSupra]

Ok, so I hooked up the timing gun right this time.
The timing (w/ TE1 and e1 jumped) was reading 15 degrees. I dialed it back lower and it almost immediately bogged down and sounded like crap near 10 (the idle speed dropped significantly and was barely chugging).

I bumped it up to 18 degrees BTDC and it sounded way better. But my idle jumped up from 600-650 rpm to about 1000 rpm... hmmm....

So I turned car off to see if car would re-set the idle itself and it did (at 18 now). So then I decided to try to dial it slowly about the 11 degree mark (and see if the idle would re-program itself) which it did and I have the idle stabilized at 600 - 640 RPM.

I also clamped the pickup on #1, #3, and #5 spark leads. I was trying to use this as a quick test to see if I was even getting any electric up from each ignition coil, and I was getting the light coming on all three. So I am sort of guessing that I probably don't have a toasted ignition coil, or a bad igniter. The plug wires all look pretty solid, they are Sumitomo from 2002. But keep in mind this car was without inspection sticker since 2005, so it was almost rarely driven for many years down a private road only with little mileage on the wires.

When I throttled the gas, I was getting, uh, not full on exhaust backfires, but a deeper and quieter popping after abruptly letting off the throttle from 1000 to 2000 rpms (it was not a loud tail pop / snap, sounded more mellow and deeper up the exhaust sort of). This happened before and after I set the ignition to 15 (at start), 18 or so as where to my ear the car seemed to run smoothest, and then to 11 where I settled on setting the ignition.

My friend was saying that on his old Buick ('67 Skylark), he advanced his spark to 18-20 degrees to make it run smooth - or it ran quite poorly where it was specified to run. He later discovered a significant vacuum leak many months or years even later, and then could set it back to spec. He was suggesting I could have a vacuum leak perhaps. Anyone think that is the case here?

Thanks!

[btwilson86]

Sounds to me like you need to pull your upper timing cover off and verify that the timing is correct (between crank and cams), that there are no missing teeth on the timing belt, and that there is no excessive slack in the timing belt as well. What's happening with your car sounds EXACTLY like what my former 87 Turbo was doing when the timing was slipping. That can also explain why the ignition timing reads incorrectly

[rjSupra]

btwilson, thanks for the advice. I think that's a great idea. I'll check into that.

Makes sense it could make a lot of these problems (starting / ignition off) but could it account for a constant problem of about half power out of the motor? This car has always needed to stomp the gas pedal to get any power at all out of it
(it's like the first 2/3 of pedal play does about 10% of gas / power and then no more power unless I tromp it WOT - again, that's mostly driving in Econ mode on AT in OD - it is more responsive in AT 'Power' mode but certainly no sports car, maybe full size chevy truck with V6 fast - maybe that truck would even smoke me).

It does occur to me that the gas mileage has dropped from maybe 19-20 mpg (was not recording first few tanks closely), to 14 to 13.3 mpg and only then started to have the starting issues (and probably even worse acceleration / power now) after I pulled the CPS to fix that damn frustrating hidden coolant leak... so maybe putting the CPS back in slipped a bit and made it all worse...
But the need for stomping the gas to get any acceleration has been there since I bought it Nov 2009 (I hardly drove it first year - it sat around, wasn't even registered / inspected).
I will take the car for a short drive tomorrow and see if the new timing has any effect on the power / starting.

[rjSupra]

ok, well, the engine codes reset and there are none - from pulling neg batt terminal overnight last sat night.
Since re-connected neg batt terminal, only drove 2 legs of 45 miles and idled a bunch for timing check in garage.
the AT codes are supposed re-set with no power to ECU like engine.
YET, they are both very much there and stored... that's a bit of a surprise so i guess i have a legit prob there.
AT just seems to shift a bit hard here and there, and early in 'Econ' mode with OD on... but otherwise seems solid... normal shifts not hard, but if I have any throttle and have OD 'off' and click to 'on' it usually has a pretty hard shift into OD that I can hear / feel from the rear diff area. Like much too sharp for a normal car. Like a whump and whole car bumps a bit. No throttle and the shift is not abrupt.
I have noticed a 'waxed skiis' type of smell, like when I am ironing wax on my snowboard - that's the smell almost exactly the last 3 times I drove the car/ was not there before even though the error codes on the AT were there before the new smell. AT error codes #62, and #63

one of many other things I need to check. Could this be causing some sort of heavy drag on the car and give me lousy power and mpg?

62
Defective No1 solenoid of short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit.
63
Defective No2 solenoid or short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit.

[rjSupra]

FOR AT in Supra, in TSRM page AT 6 it says:

"Line pressure
Line pressure is the most basic and important pressure used in the AT, b/c it is used to operate all the clutches and brakes in the transmission.
If the primary regulator valve does not operate correctly, line pressure will be either too high or too low. Line pressure that is too high will lead to shifting shock, and consequent engine power loss due to the greater effort required of the oil pump; line pressure that is too low will cause slippage of clutches and brakes and in extreme cases, prevent the vehicle from moving. Therefore if either of these problems are noted, the line pressure should be measured to see if it is within standard."

I am noting engine power loss big time. When the car is started cold it will either not basically move, like the slightest incline in a simple driveway will either bog down the engine all the way to stall it, or rev and go nowhere. Once my Engine heat temp is normal, I can drive off - albeit with an appalling loss of power, worse than a gutless truck always. How would I check this stuff? I have the car way up in air, to grease the zerks on my new lower ball joints. Are there also electrical cables I should inspect under there for mouse / chipmunk eatage? (There were tons of nests in the car and engine bay when I bought it).


CORRECTION: I cut and pasted the #62 and #63 AT error codes from elsewhere - note the grammatical error on cut n paste too.
However, the scanned TSRM from Cgynus X-1 is more clarifying and specific:
62 is 'Severed #1 solenoid or short circuit - severed wire harness or short circuit
63 is 'Severed #2 solenoid or short circuit - severed wire harness or short circuit
Not sure where to verify all this, but doing more research now online and will root around under car more too.

And another note, the shifting all works, R, D, L, OD etc... it starts in first gear and goes up through 2nd, 3rd and OD. Reverse is fine too. In 'Econ' it shifts early in my opinion, but 'power' is better. So, if anyone wants to send some pointers my way or dealt with these errors / issues let me know!!

[rjSupra]

Located the #1 and #2 Solenoid wires. Took hours online, they are not listed well.
They are Green - Black and Green - Yellow wires, that run nearly to the back of the transmission driver side and both go into a rubber insert into Trans. (There's one final wire that runs to very back which is something else).

Coming back from the AT, it meets a wire connector underneath the intake side of engine, and from there goes to ECT underneath glove box I gather. Wiring into ECT looks brand new, perfect, and all wires are still wrapped and look visually complete everywhere I can spot them. Will try to run the Ohm meter on them tomorrow to double check they are capable of carrying electrical current each way.

[rjSupra]

The plastic wire loom looks like shit, but the wires inside are fine looking without any cracks, holes, tears etc... this answers an older posted suggestion.

[rjSupra]

Dunno why, a just in case I guess, but I just ohm and volt metered my TPS (Throttle Position Sensor).
Pulled cabled connector to TPS. Connected 15 VDC setting on voltmeter to TPS unit / car side (not electrical wire side).

Here's my findings on 2 tests:
My 7M GTE motor has a pin config like this starting at top going down to oil pan floor direction (got this right?? - from TSRM)
VC
VTA
IDL
E2

All measurements made with key ignition switch 'ON' but motor off / cold and not running. It's 40 degrees F here today and not been started in 2 days.
Ohm meter RX100 setting, zeroed dial to '0' with probes connected together at start.

IDL - E2 throttle fully closed = 0 (supposed to be less than 2.3 ohm)
IDL - E2 WOT = infinity (supposed to be infinity)
VC - E2 = 60 ohms (SUPPOSED TO BE 3.9 - 9.0 ohms) - NG
VTA - E2 throttle fully closed = 5 ohms (supposed to be 0.47 - 6.1 ohm)
VTA - E2 WOT = 35 ohms (SUPPOSED TO BE 3.1 - 12.1 ohm) - NG
---------------

2nd test
diagnostic box. My diagnostic box does not list a "TT" connector but has a labelled 'ECT' - that the one I used, voltmeter at 15 VDC setting red probe to 'ECT' pin and neg/blk probe to 'E1' pin.
Ignition switch still at 'ON'. Engine off / not running. Car Battery checked in at 12 Volts (it's cold today).
no throttle:
ECT - E1 reading = 4 Volts
WOT:
ECT - E1 reading = SAME - 4 Volts, it did not budge at all.

Crap, did not measure clearance between lever and stop screw. i remember there is fair amount of slack on the two throttle cables before they would engage anything. Will try to re- check this now.

I am not throwing any engine codes (just AT ones) and no code 41 present. I also have insulation exposed on 1 wire to AFM, the Green - Red one. The wire is exposed about 1/4" near AFM. It's not in contact with anything else, but I just noticed this right now (can't really short anywhere that I can think, other cables with it are intact).

So, is this a smoking gun that my TPS is bad? Or something else like a relay somewhere bad? All the fuses were good not that long ago, can re-check them.
As noted earlier, this car has so little power. It idles immediately at 600 rpms always at cold and warm start up (some start problems in very cold weather where it cranks but won't run over), there is never a high idle no matter how cold she is, or how cold outside. Idles reliably, can't drive for shit cold (will barely move on the flats in any gear), after full Op temp on engine temp gauge it can drive down the road. Can drive at 70 - 75 mph, it's very happy at 70 mph and has some power and runs smooth. Runs like shit at 50 - 55mph at 1700 - 2200 rpms (AT in OD), motor runs ok, but no power, and some light stumbling felt and body quiver. Also started bogging down if I give it 1/4 throttle or more at red light start. I wind up accelerating quite slowly pissing off all behind me. I can tromp it and get the Turbo to whine and spool up and I get a lot more power, but not sports car fast power.

Also, I can work with voltmeters no problem. Never ohm-ed a thing in my life so could have been doing it wrong, but seems pretty simple. Can get '1' on certain metal things etc... makes sense to me.

Any thoughts my helpful forum people? Thank you.

[rjSupra]

Feeling, uh, stupid. After re-reading a number of things, I think my TPS is actually probably where it's suppose to be.
going to re-check it correctly now.
(I did not know where it was scrawled 3.5 - 10.3 that actually probably meant 3500 - 10300 ohms, nor did i realize i was set at Value x 100 which would make a reading of SAY '60' on the meter really mean it was 6000.
I apologize for wasting everyone's time here today.

(car still runs like sh*t though).