car suddenly wont start - never ran great anyway, esp. cold, now cranks, but won't st

[cre]

Heh, yeah those multipliers can be a real bitch. lol. It's okay, I'm sure I've done it.

A bad TPS wouldn't cause significant issues with the operation of the engine... it's just a trim sensor. Worst case scenario you have a poor idle, fuel economy gets a little worse and your throttle response gets a little sloppy. You can actually disconnect the TPS and should be able to drive without noticing a huge difference.

Measuring resistance of the TPS isn't as reliable as measuring the actual voltage at the ECU's VTA pin. Should be ~.5v throttle closed and 3.5v throttle wide open. I remember from tuning these cars that the voltage should not exceed 3.48v at WOT. Vc should be at about 5v (around 4.8v measured at any sensor location).

I thought I already covered this but that must've been in another thread.

[rjSupra]

Thanks Cre!! I always feel better if you are weighing in.

So, yeah got it all sorted. The TPS values are all in the ballpark. I think it's fine.
If I measure VTA - E2 at WOT my value is 3.6 at rX1000
VTA - E2 with .9mm simulated gap at throttle stop the value is 5.5 at rx100, 0 at rx1000
VTA - E2 with 0mm gap there, value is 5 at rx100 or 0 at rx1000 (should be 0.2 to 1.2K ohms)
IDL - E2 at WOT is infinite.
VC - E2 59 at rx100 5.1 at rx1000 (should be 4.25 - 8.25K ohms)
There's more I measured but I think this covers it generally.
TT (ECT) - E1 at diagnosis box I read under 1 volt and then up to about 7.5 volts at WOT. That all checks out ok.

Here's where things get real strange. Still have AT errors 62 and 63 stored.
Did a full wiring analysis with visual, resistance and alternative power source.

Basically, if I break the 5 pin connector apart from near starter from ECT to transmission, and also when I went all the way to where that connects back to the ECT, if I run a 9 Volt battery + to each pin - Solenoid #1, Solenoid #2 and Solenoid Lock I can activate them all and hear them distinctly click (while grounded to frame). Both at 5 pin breakaway spot, and at ECT ending cable connector spot.
Resistance Ohm values in and out of ECT are in spec up these three using brown ECT ground in unit as ground (all 3 are 11 - 12 ohm resistance).
However, if I Ohm meter the cable connector that attaches to the ECT near passenger footwell, this is not right.
Solenoid #1 pin resistance = infinite
Solenoid #2 pin resistance = 70 at rX100 setting AND 19 at rX1000 setting.
Solenoid lock resistance = infinite.

So, what is this deal here? It would seem that I have electrical wire short or sever. Yet I can send power down these exact pins and activate the solenoids in distant transmission.
The damn barn mice didn't get their grubby little jaws on the wiring anywhere near the ECT, it looks like this whole area just rolled off the factory floor.
So am in crazy crazy land? (I think I bought a big piece of property there anyway with this car...)

[rjSupra]

Ok here's the deal:

Have wire connector out from ECT near passenger footwell.
It connects to 6 pin connector 'B' style right next to engine starter motor (using 5 pins of 6 available slots).
From this connector next wire goes straight to AT where it splits into 2 branches, one to back 1/3 of AT, one branch to very back of AT.

ECT wire to B connector (near starter):
5 pins female at connector:
Green/Black = Solenoid #1
Green/Yellow = Solenoid #2
Blue / Red = Solenoid Lock up
Red / Green = T/M Speed sensor
Brown = Ground (from ECT it hits a Junction box, according to TEWD, and splits to a ground to body and to this wire to Connector B)

B connector wire (near starter) to AT:
4 PINS male ONLY here - where's the stupid ground going to?? - nowhere. No pin to hook into it. It simply terminates in the connector. Wtf, that makes no sense.
AND according to '87 and '89 TEWD my wiring colors are off here anyway direct to AT - they are supposed to match colors above. Here's what they are in real life.
Solenoid #1 pin = White
Solenoid #2 pin = Black
Solenoid Lock up = Yellow
T/M Speed sensor = Red

Am I over thinking this?? My solenoids I can activate all 3 at the ECT end wire with a 9 Volt battery and hear them all click, I also did the same at the male connector pins at B connector (the wh, blk, yell pins - they all click here too). Yet my AT transmission codes 62 & 63 are still up and are saying I have a severed or shorted connection on both Solenoid #1 and #2 in the AT.

And even more on my mind, if Solenoid #1 and / or #2 really was not functioning at all or properly, could that somehow generate a massive drag in the powertrain and account for my horrible 13 m.p.g. driving as lightly as possible, and low car pulling power and when cold the car will hardly move when idle speed is perfect etc... ?? It drives off ok when engine op temp is normal (with low power issues the norm since I bought car).

[rjSupra]

this a.m. i reconnected B connector from ECT to AT, that's all I did.
I re- Ohm tested the 3 solenoids and guess what?
They are all metering in at around 11 ohms - in spec, where it was supposed to be.


Either means I tested it wrong or read Ohm meter wrong first time (possible since new to Ohm -ing), or the connector was not good before and solid at least now.

So two previous posts earlier, ignore the bad ohm values on Solenoid #1, #2 and Lock. (the infinites and 70 / 19 ohm - not that value today).

Hello crazy.

[rjSupra]

So. So.
My car has decided to re-set it's own AT error codes. With all this electrical diagnosis, the only thing I 'changed' was unplug that 5 female to 4 pin connector to the trans and re-connect it. Now it all Ohms right. And my AT error codes have vanished - no I never pulled the EFI fuse or disconnected the battery in any way.

Also, even the car has only idled several times and rev-ed and not driven, my engine codes were clear when I parked it before all this work, and now I am throwing a code #24.

I think I need a rum and coke.

[rjSupra]

- new batt (few months old)
- full gas tank 94 Octane from 5 days ago
- TPS set correctly
- just set ignition timing correct to 11 degrees (10 was rough) with gun and jumpered correctly terminals
- ignition coils wiring all looks good secure
- FP to B+ I can hear fuel rushing into throttle body area
- Alt. good, it re-charged drained new batt in 30 minutes (see below).

it did just start and idled immediately at 600 rpms in 40 degree F weather. I put it in 'R' and gassed it down slightest incline (to see if all the AT work fixed it not really able to move when cold). Drove back 30 yards fine and with some pep. Put it in 'D' to drive back up slight incline and gave it 1/4 - 1/3 throttle and it bogged down and died.

Won't start now at all. cranks and cranks. sometimes almost acts like it's going to with going up and down on the throttle but no go. (no throttle now it's not close to starting). First time it did start no throttle.

Frustrated, need to go. I experiment. Waiting several minutes and not cranking more than 15 sec mostly.
FP - B+ for a minute. Then try, crank, no start.
FP - B+ while I crank with hearing fuel rushing, no start.
Then I pull the EFI 15a fuse just in case there is some stupid computer error that needs to re-set. Put back in, nothing.
Pulled neg batt terminal off, will give it 30 min and re-try.

This car pulled this stunt after sitting for 3 hours last week. I'd try, wait, try... for 8 hours until I gave up with dead batt. Got ride back next day with truck and jumped it and it started 2nd try. Then batt charged in 30 minutes so it could easily re-start itself. Re-started it 5 - 6 times no problem over next few days.
4th time this happened in cold(er) weather. Never happened in warm, but did not drive it that much this past fall. Only thing I did that last time was take neg batt terminal off over night. So trying that now - yeah I know, it won't work, but what the hell.
I can hear relay click in car passenger side, and my TEMS activate or something like that. Ignition coil and igniter wires look hooked up solidly and ok. Spark plugs look ok 3000 miles ago.
Had cleared my engine error codes and not been back after driving 40 miles and 4 starts (originally O2 sensor and ignition coil / igniter error codes up).
This a.m. to last re-check error codes I suddenly have a '24' I never had before and have not driven the car since it was last cleared. '24' is 'Intake air temp sensor signal' - I did just pull that connector to check it with ohm / volt meter the other day, and thanks Toyota for putting the pins mounted upside down so I could not get probes into it while actually seeing what I was touching. Re-hooked it back up, at least the connector looked clean. It might have idled a few times after I was setting the ignition timing after all the codes were clear.
Also, just tried the re-start after batt neg term back. No start.
Just swapped igniter (had extra one that came with car). No start. Sort of almost but sort of doesn't count.
Don't know what to do. My only car and I have to work. This is now Dr Jekyl and Mr. Car. Surprise! Who you gonna get today?

[rjSupra]

7M-GTE stock. AT. 131K. Symptoms:
Very low power since I've owned it. WOT 1.5 years back and the the car would turbo up and pull strong after low power not on the boost. Now, it is much weaker. Sat a lot in 1.5 years.

Recently in 55-65 degree F weather, the car temp shot up in a parking lot (after hwy driving 1.5 hours - but no high temp there except up not steep hill where my turbo boost sat at +4 and I saw the temp go way up).
The coolant makes horrible boiling gurgling noises. Very hot overflow reservoir.

Car idles at 600-650 instantly on start up. IF it starts. Always starts warm, but sometimes won't start no matter what when cold - cranks and cranks.

New batt, new water pump, new T Stat and I clipped toggle and drilled 4mm hole
TPS checks out in spec.
ECT seems to pass all ohm / volt testing correct. Alt working properly.
Each pair of spark leads shows pulse on timing gun. Set timing properly - or nearly to 11 degrees.
Pulled CPS and replaced seal and set correctly with timing gun.
Fuel pump sends fuel with FP - B+ jumped. Can hear whine from pump underneath rear of car too.

Car has sat a lot since 2004/5. Only occasional runs up and down private road. No info on HG / BHG or other issues.

Because it's sat around a lot, and previous owner just added 1-2 gallons of regular gas here and there and drove it 1/4 mile on occasion, I am thinking the fuel filter is clogged?? That's my new theory. I am in hopes it's super clogged and causing this all, the super low power, and the hesitation after trying to drive off normal from a full stop, and even the occasional refusing to start. Anyone want to chime in?


(have not check the AFM, or cold start injector - is that a joke where the access to get at the electrical connector and CSI or I am looking at the wrong thing?)

Thanks!!

[DawgB0]

wow Exactly same here smh what hell with supra nowdayz but still hav faith in it just dont know where to look at now. mine keep trying to engage n pop then back to crank then start do same thing over again wit backfires thats how im amuse i have sparks and fuel and what abt air??

[vikenabm]

Old thread, but if you check back here, did you fix this? I had similar symptoms, ran horribly, very hot at idle. Did you check cam timing as well as ignition? and check for correct hook up of all coils from ignitor/to plugs? mistiming definitely could run rough, low power and very hot.

Originally Posted by rjSupra

7M-GTE stock. AT. 131K. Symptoms:
Very low power since I've owned it. WOT 1.5 years back and the the car would turbo up and pull strong after low power not on the boost. Now, it is much weaker. Sat a lot in 1.5 years.

Recently in 55-65 degree F weather, the car temp shot up in a parking lot (after hwy driving 1.5 hours - but no high temp there except up not steep hill where my turbo boost sat at +4 and I saw the temp go way up).
The coolant makes horrible boiling gurgling noises. Very hot overflow reservoir.

Car idles at 600-650 instantly on start up. IF it starts. Always starts warm, but sometimes won't start no matter what when cold - cranks and cranks.

New batt, new water pump, new T Stat and I clipped toggle and drilled 4mm hole
TPS checks out in spec.
ECT seems to pass all ohm / volt testing correct. Alt working properly.
Each pair of spark leads shows pulse on timing gun. Set timing properly - or nearly to 11 degrees.
Pulled CPS and replaced seal and set correctly with timing gun.
Fuel pump sends fuel with FP - B+ jumped. Can hear whine from pump underneath rear of car too.

Car has sat a lot since 2004/5. Only occasional runs up and down private road. No info on HG / BHG or other issues.

Because it's sat around a lot, and previous owner just added 1-2 gallons of regular gas here and there and drove it 1/4 mile on occasion, I am thinking the fuel filter is clogged?? That's my new theory. I am in hopes it's super clogged and causing this all, the super low power, and the hesitation after trying to drive off normal from a full stop, and even the occasional refusing to start. Anyone want to chime in?


(have not check the AFM, or cold start injector - is that a joke where the access to get at the electrical connector and CSI or I am looking at the wrong thing?)

Thanks!!

[rjSupra]

Hmmm... Interesting I did not check that.
Unless you mean the cam position sensor. If so, yes I did make triple sure that was set correctly.
I did not really triple check the wiring from the igniter but I am sure it's always been routed the same since I bought the car.

Anyway...
I think I've tossed in the towel on this car.
I'm going to list it up for sale here.
Either as whole car or whole car plus the parts.

I have no time at all to mess with it anymore. It's sat too long now since I had started to replace the fuel filter.