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car suddenly wont start - never ran great anyway, esp. cold, now cranks, but won't st
Hello excellent forum,
Engine will crank but not run (had started & run without this problem ever including earlier this same day!). 88 Turbo AT, 131K, prob 5th owner and questionable history last 6 years on maintenance. It mostly sat and was run only occasionally on short private road - what that last owner told me anyway. With a good batt, it always started right up. Idle steady and solid about 600 RPM at start, no real 'high idle' which dropped after warm. Dunno if that's normal but my Integra has a high idle on start. But NOW, it won't start at all. It cranks no problem (new batt), but chugs like it's about to run on it's own and won't get the final 5% there if you know what i mean. I jumped the +B and FP terminals, and could hear a distinct fuel (or liquid at least) noise right around the throttle body so I am guessing I am getting fuel ok? Just did the error codes by jumping E1 & T. Got codes 14 and 21. I did look them up and will search here more, but I am a little not sure what's the next step. ALSO, 10 minutes ago I put the T & E1 jumper in (with it not in all the way b/c error codes did not flash), and then I noticed a smoke starting to come out at the back top area of the motor (an accessory or component up high and back, not the motor itself). I also smelled like a light burning plastic type of smell. I smelled that before this morning before I had the hood up and saw the smoke. It was not smoking on a lot of earlier attempts with the hood open though, just the last time. I've jiggled the CPS connector and the connection look ok. Turbo O2 sensor wiring looks ok. The TEMS leds go up to 3rd LED sometime as I am trying to start the car, and then back to 1. I can hear the suspension clicking about in the rear. Before this not starting problem when it ran the last 6 months I've had it, it runs like shit at 2000 rpms with AT in Economy and Overdrive enabled. Pulls like I am towing a boat, cold or warm 2K Revs on the motor is bad, stumbly and low low power. If I hammer it with 'Power' on AT setting and get full boost it does get more respectable. OH, and I get 14.3 MPG, yeah, driving like an old lady with mostly highway, you read that right. 15mpg if I am 'lucky'. what does that also indicate? (I use premium fuel). Runs pretty good at 70 mph +, it seems to really pick up and have power and not ever stumble at 2300 RPM+. 2500 RPM and fully warm it's almost dreamy although not quite. This Supra hates the cold. If I start it under 50 degrees or maybe 40 at least, the motor starts, runs, revs mostly normal (stumbles on initial throttle tip in), but put in in 'D' press the gas and she'll barely move on the flat. Even flooring it, and i mean almost not move at all. Ditto for 'Reverse' D1 etc... After 10-15 minutes idle and normal op temp, it will drive down the road. Hills of most kinds present a challenge for this motor too.... it has very weak power. And even full boosting isn't exactly going to impress your co-driver. There was a suggestion it's tranny related by chatting to a Hyundai tech friend and a chevy mechanic friend of friend (the cold not moving problem). The 2nd to last owner I tracked down, and 7 years back he said he noticed a 'power problem' the last stretch of him owning it and did not know what it was. Also he and last owner don't know about HG and if it was ever replaced etc... The car did come with full parts to do a Tran swap to Manual (lucky me), a throttle body, a head that was done 'perfect'. I think, maybe (??) I have two separate problems here? Maybe a 02 sensor gone bad that makes it run like shit? and now won't start? And maybe something gone bad in the AT that makes it a grouch when cold? (and also due to a massive coolant leak problem - that stupid 90 small hose underneath the thermo housing - I pulled the CPS to remove the water outlet housing and replace its gasket - another leak pre-emptive repair while I was in there - and replaced the oil seal and correctly put back in the CPS while aligned at #1 TDC. The car ran identically before and after I did this, so I don't think at least a CPS timing issue is present). Any help would be greatly appreciated!! |
that cold power issue def seems like tranny problem, i recently just started having a similar problem with mine, but it rarely gets that cold here. Sometimes when that happens to me, i'll shut off the car and then restart the car and it seems to work and have it's power back. As for your other issue of not starting, I'm not to clever with cars but it sounds like a timing thing... also to check if your getting fuel, just pull a hose off after the fuel pump and put the end into a jar and crank the engine. If there is gas in jar when you check then pump is working. Hopefully someone with a lil more knowledge will chime in and give you more advice.
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getting fuel noise in or next to throttle body - so pretty sure getting gas & batt g
I can hear the whoosh of fuel in or next to the throttle body / fuel rail area. I just put the ignition key in and turned to 'on' and then jumped the FP & B+ connections. I could clearly hear fuel then, so I think that part is good.
I have tons of stuff in the car so was not able to verify if the fuel pump under carpet is clicking on ignition key in. Do i still need to check that if I can hear the fuel pumping while I am doing the above bypass? (also there is that 21 code - Ignitor / ECU and code 14 O2 sensor / ECU happening, so could that shut me down from re-starting?) and how the heck do you know if it's a bad ECU instead causing problems? Seems like a lot in the error codes, the lower possible culprit is - ECU! Thanks. |
All the fuses are working.
Checked under hood and inside foot well fuse box. All the fuses are still intact.
I also found I have an extra / surpplus MT ECU not an AT one. My car right now is AT (with stock ECU I assume) and a the 2nd prior owner was intending to swap it to MT and handed all the parts along. I suppose - from reading here - that if the ECU is toast, this one won't work for me as they are different. |
AT error codes 62 & 63 - ugh.
So, I didn't even know the Auto Transmission had error codes too (thanks Cygnus X-1 for procedure).
I have error codes: 62 63 that are stored. According to Cygnus X-1 it means: 62 - Defective No1 solenoid or short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit. 63 - Defective No2 solenoid or short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit. Don't have any idea if this could be contributing to a grouchy slow Supra in the extreme cold, and the occasional hard shift into OverDrive. ?? And one other note, my wiring harness / loom is, uh, not pretty. Looks like high temps have sort of melted / brittled away some of the black enclosing thingee, and a few wires are open and exposed in front of the CPS area... I can't really get it out, or haven't devoted the time to pull it out for full inspection, I am also sort of afraid of cracking off more of the black plastic stuff, it's very flimsy at this point. Don't know if that could be an issue and causing all of these problems?? |
A bad wire harness could account for all of your problems. Personally, I'd start with testing and patching the harness but I'm more of an electrical kind of guy.
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Thanks Cre.
I hear you. That might not be a bad place to start. Also, for some reason I don't think my ECU is bad, just a hunch nothing more. But my O2 sensor looks pretty old and dirty on the outside, so I bet it's old and dirty on the inside too. I wonder if the 02 sensor is so bad and dirty and old, and the temp was so cold here yesterday, maybe it just couldn't work (air temp in the teens, maybe lower). And maybe trying to start the car the 14 + times without it starting prompted my #21 error of ignitor / ignition pack failing to start after "A" times (which for my Turbo is 3 times in a row). So would that make sense? Can a trashed O2 sensor cause some power issues by, what, messing up combustion or timing, and account for lowered power and crappy fuel mileage? What do other folks get on their older Supras for MPG anyway? I think I read 14-30 mpg range. It would be very nice to solve this problem, have a running car, and a break from the headaches. I haven't even had time to think about the nasty PS leak with all the other stuff. |
Your O2 sensor isn't going to cause much other then slightly poorer mileage than normal. The average mileage I've seen would be about 18MPG with mixed highway and city and a slightly heavy foot on occasion. You can unplug the O2 sensor and should see little change in the operation of the vehicle. If there is a significant change then there is a problem with a more critical trim sensor somewhere else in the system (such as the AFM).
The code could be the result of low voltage due to the cold temp and drain from repeated cranking... test the battery, the alternator and test the ignitor. |
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have new batt, and used 50 amp charger for car starting too
Hi guys, thanks for the assistance!
I have a battery charger with a 50 amp starting setting, to start the car with the battery in it from your garage A.C. This worked pretty good with a bad battery before on the car, before I bought a new (cheap) battery. Autolite Silver series $67 with core on sale direct internet. Probably not a great battery, but I was not sure at that point I could keep the car (had that unsolved mega coolant problem that grounded it for 2 months at the time, and had thought if the steel line under the headers was toast I'd probably sell the car as is with disclosures). So, I am guessing I should be getting enough juice. I am separated from the car's location for another day, hopefully when I get back it will warm up a bit and I can re-try. The car sat about 24 hrs overnight in fact (not same day), in biting cold since it had last been driven 30 miles / 45 minutes. So far, the alternator has been keeping the battery charged. The car has sat for 7+ days in bad cold before and fired right up as always. I have not done the spark plugs. They looked, well used, but not terrible. No real oil that I can recall, although it's possible one was wet a little bit. Mostly I remember normal carbon deposits (at the time no plug gapper tool, so could not check the gaps). Have not done the wires, no idea when they were done last, although visually they look ok (i've seen a lot worse). Any thoughts what that wisp of smoke behind the motor, close to the firewall could have been? And the slight plastic-y burning smell? That happened the last time I tried to start her, with a paper clip jumping either the engine error code check terminals, or the fuel pump 12v bypass I can't quite remember which one I had it in. It sounds like the 02 sensor can't be at fault for all these issues, so I appreciate knowing that now. Don't really know what they do aside from I gather measuring oxygen levels in exhaust to send setting info to the car for fuel rich / lean levels etc... I do have a multi meter so next step would be to test a few of the components that way. It was just too cold and dark the other day to deal with it. Thanks again. |
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the car started today. it was 37 degrees out.
Ok, this is good, but weird. The car started on the 2nd try today.
It seemed like it was not actually running, but I let off on the starter ignition key and it chugged on it's own slowly and then ran. It idled normal. It was probably 17 degrees that other night. A car guy I talked to tonight said it was probably the 02 sensor is shot, and the car is only in one mode - like an 'emergency' type of mode, b/c the sensor can't detect when it's running too rich and to cut back etc etc... Does this all seem to make sense? He said if it was the ignition coils it would not run period, and it was running like it always does (not super strong and crappy fuel mileage) tonight. So maybe I just pop in a new 02 sensor and that could be the end of that? Thanks! |
How can I say this simply?
No. |
Hey Cre:
Thanks for jumping in again. To clarify, did you mean that the 02 sensor won't prohibit the ECU from detecting proper levels in the exhaust to set, uh things it does like fuel mixture, air etc etc... (therefore crap mpg and maybe cranky starting in the cold perhaps with the 'wrong' settings for fuel / air) or did you mean 'No' to the thought that if the coils were shot it wouldn't run at all. This guy was not a Supra expert, but works on cars before as a mechanic and does know the Supra somewhat (like that it's an inline 6 3.0 liter etc...) Perhaps he does not know there were 3 ignition coils in this car. He also did not seem to know what an igniter is in it. But he did state a shot 02 sensor that is triggering OBD means the correct levels can't be achieved for all engine temps, and this would account for not running great, perhaps bad starting cold etc... Thanks again! |
The car will run fine with a bad O2 sensor. Once the signal get out of range the ECU just ignores it. When running cold you would see no difference at all as it is as the ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor until the engine is close to normal operating temp. This is the case with almost ALL EFI equipped cars from the mid 90's and earlier. I've already covered this once... Unplug it, there should be very little difference. Your mechanic is either used to vehicles from the 60's or only new "plug it in and that neato machine will tell you what to replace" models.
Coil packs will cause intermittent misfires and if there's a break in the circuit they'll usually be fine when the engine is warm but falter when cold as the conduits shrink and the gap widens. Have you checked the timing (both mechanical and ignition)? Have you inspected the timing belt? Have you diagnosed the transmission codes yet? EDIT: There is VERY little which will put the ECU into "limp mode"... the only one that's really common is a code 52 or heavy knock detection. |
Thanks for the explanations Cre. Before getting this car I have to admit I really did not know what an Oxy sensor was, what it looked like, and what it did - in any car let alone this one. Sorry for the newb-ness.
I did pull my CPS to repair the coolant problem before and very carefully set it back in correctly aligned the way it was supposed to be (TSRM) with the crank at TDC both visually on the pulley. So that part of the ignition is in spec. (in also ran identically to how it ran before I pulled it out). I have not gone any further than finding the two transmission code problems so far. Have not been around the car for several days and have not put the volt meter to different parts / wiring yet. My car is not having knock problems, nor is it mis - firing. Although today for the first time after starting it and it was idling fine for 2-3 minutes, it did stumble heavily once during idle and then ran normal after that. (like the motor sounded like it was bogging down and like it would almost stop running for a few seconds and then went back to normal idling about 600 rpms like nothing had happened). You might be right about the mechanic guy - could be either one of those types you suggested. |
The sensors used in modern vehicles provide a LOT more information about the fuel mixture and are accurate under a much wider range of conditions; They're known as "wideband" sensors and they do serve as a diagnostic tool.
Older types of oxygen sensors (aka "Lambda" sensors) are only capable of detecting a very specific mixture; get outside of that range and it provides essentially zero data. They're useless except as a trim sensor to adjust for that 1% that the mixture may be off... Your mileage may suffer from a bad one, but it's not going to stop running. |
no light out of timing gun, engine error code re-set also
Car stranded me after work one day and refused to start in relatively cold weather (30 F?) Would not start at all no matter what I did. If my car is cold I usually blip the throttle a little bit and back it off to start it. I've noticed if it doesn't start the first try I am usually screwed and it won't start at all. Especially if I can't start on 2 tried, I'm really in trouble.
Oh, the batt is good, the motor cranks and cranks and almost starts when it's bad and then won't run. Jumped it the next day and it started on try #2. If the car is warm, it can start with no throttle. Down to 13.2 MPG, and running really poorly. Worse than before and harder to start. I have so little power up inclines. Even with the turbo at +6 on the gauge I can accelerate up big hills but not much. Without a lot of boost, I loose speed and crawl up them. Climbed a very steep but less than quarter mile hill and my car temp went up really high - about 80% of the gauge last night as I was going super slow up it. To set and check ignition timing, I just borrowed a friend's timing gun and followed the TSRM online and my Haynes Celica 86 and on models manual and I had no light at all coming from the gun with the thing all connected right and the car warm and running with the T - E terminals connected. Dunno if the gun is broken or I am doing it wrong. (Sunpro timing gun with red lead onto batt +, blk lead onto batt - or grounded to alt bracket and I got no light). Other end onto #6 spark wire - cleaned and solid contact on the inductive clamp, then on #1 spark wire, then on #4 and #5 with a bad connection on #5, no light from anything. And, I checked and all my engine error codes are cleared after starting the car about 8 times and running it 3 times a total of about 40 miles. So far the O2 sensor error is not back, nor the Igniter / Ignition coil error code. I also found I have a spare ignitor that came from a donor car, it looks visually a little better than the igniter in my car - should I switch that out in case? |
If i were you i would start Ohm'ing sensors
pick up coils http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar....aspx?S=IG&P=9 http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=12 plug wires [2 pages NEXT] check igniter http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=15 check CPS http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=IG&P=16 just check everything on this page. lol http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar....aspx?S=FI&P=1 something else you may def want to take a peek at.... http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...spx?S=FI&P=124 |
Thanks El Supracabra, I like the forum name!
Thanks for the links. That's next on my battery of tests to run on this troublesome car. I pulled the CPS before, inspected it, it looks good. Replaced stupid seal that was leaking a lot while there so my motor is a lot cleaner now. I set the CPS in the correct way per TSRM. EDIT: I GUESS I JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO SET UP THE GUN. My friend told me I did it wrong, so I will try that again the right way tomorrow night. (oops). But my car is weak as a kitten and seems to be getting worse. Before it always started reliably, at least before it got really cold in the winter. And I need to really press the accelerator to move the car and I still don't keep up with normal traffic unless I hammer it and am boosting on the Turbo a lot. |
re-set ignition timing - details
Ok, so I hooked up the timing gun right this time.
The timing (w/ TE1 and e1 jumped) was reading 15 degrees. I dialed it back lower and it almost immediately bogged down and sounded like crap near 10 (the idle speed dropped significantly and was barely chugging). I bumped it up to 18 degrees BTDC and it sounded way better. But my idle jumped up from 600-650 rpm to about 1000 rpm... hmmm.... So I turned car off to see if car would re-set the idle itself and it did (at 18 now). So then I decided to try to dial it slowly about the 11 degree mark (and see if the idle would re-program itself) which it did and I have the idle stabilized at 600 - 640 RPM. I also clamped the pickup on #1, #3, and #5 spark leads. I was trying to use this as a quick test to see if I was even getting any electric up from each ignition coil, and I was getting the light coming on all three. So I am sort of guessing that I probably don't have a toasted ignition coil, or a bad igniter. The plug wires all look pretty solid, they are Sumitomo from 2002. But keep in mind this car was without inspection sticker since 2005, so it was almost rarely driven for many years down a private road only with little mileage on the wires. When I throttled the gas, I was getting, uh, not full on exhaust backfires, but a deeper and quieter popping after abruptly letting off the throttle from 1000 to 2000 rpms (it was not a loud tail pop / snap, sounded more mellow and deeper up the exhaust sort of). This happened before and after I set the ignition to 15 (at start), 18 or so as where to my ear the car seemed to run smoothest, and then to 11 where I settled on setting the ignition. My friend was saying that on his old Buick ('67 Skylark), he advanced his spark to 18-20 degrees to make it run smooth - or it ran quite poorly where it was specified to run. He later discovered a significant vacuum leak many months or years even later, and then could set it back to spec. He was suggesting I could have a vacuum leak perhaps. Anyone think that is the case here? Thanks! |
Sounds to me like you need to pull your upper timing cover off and verify that the timing is correct (between crank and cams), that there are no missing teeth on the timing belt, and that there is no excessive slack in the timing belt as well. What's happening with your car sounds EXACTLY like what my former 87 Turbo was doing when the timing was slipping. That can also explain why the ignition timing reads incorrectly
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can timing belt off / bad cause significant loss of power?
btwilson, thanks for the advice. I think that's a great idea. I'll check into that.
Makes sense it could make a lot of these problems (starting / ignition off) but could it account for a constant problem of about half power out of the motor? This car has always needed to stomp the gas pedal to get any power at all out of it (it's like the first 2/3 of pedal play does about 10% of gas / power and then no more power unless I tromp it WOT - again, that's mostly driving in Econ mode on AT in OD - it is more responsive in AT 'Power' mode but certainly no sports car, maybe full size chevy truck with V6 fast - maybe that truck would even smoke me). It does occur to me that the gas mileage has dropped from maybe 19-20 mpg (was not recording first few tanks closely), to 14 to 13.3 mpg and only then started to have the starting issues (and probably even worse acceleration / power now) after I pulled the CPS to fix that damn frustrating hidden coolant leak... so maybe putting the CPS back in slipped a bit and made it all worse... But the need for stomping the gas to get any acceleration has been there since I bought it Nov 2009 (I hardly drove it first year - it sat around, wasn't even registered / inspected). I will take the car for a short drive tomorrow and see if the new timing has any effect on the power / starting. |
AT error codes #62 #63 back - same as before after batt removed & drove 40 miles
ok, well, the engine codes reset and there are none - from pulling neg batt terminal overnight last sat night.
Since re-connected neg batt terminal, only drove 2 legs of 45 miles and idled a bunch for timing check in garage. the AT codes are supposed re-set with no power to ECU like engine. YET, they are both very much there and stored... that's a bit of a surprise so i guess i have a legit prob there. AT just seems to shift a bit hard here and there, and early in 'Econ' mode with OD on... but otherwise seems solid... normal shifts not hard, but if I have any throttle and have OD 'off' and click to 'on' it usually has a pretty hard shift into OD that I can hear / feel from the rear diff area. Like much too sharp for a normal car. Like a whump and whole car bumps a bit. No throttle and the shift is not abrupt. I have noticed a 'waxed skiis' type of smell, like when I am ironing wax on my snowboard - that's the smell almost exactly the last 3 times I drove the car/ was not there before even though the error codes on the AT were there before the new smell. AT error codes #62, and #63 one of many other things I need to check. Could this be causing some sort of heavy drag on the car and give me lousy power and mpg? 62 Defective No1 solenoid of short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit. 63 Defective No2 solenoid or short circuit-severed wire harness or short circuit. |
Auto transmission errors #62 and #62 - could this cause my power loss read this tsrm
FOR AT in Supra, in TSRM page AT 6 it says:
"Line pressure Line pressure is the most basic and important pressure used in the AT, b/c it is used to operate all the clutches and brakes in the transmission. If the primary regulator valve does not operate correctly, line pressure will be either too high or too low. Line pressure that is too high will lead to shifting shock, and consequent engine power loss due to the greater effort required of the oil pump; line pressure that is too low will cause slippage of clutches and brakes and in extreme cases, prevent the vehicle from moving. Therefore if either of these problems are noted, the line pressure should be measured to see if it is within standard." I am noting engine power loss big time. When the car is started cold it will either not basically move, like the slightest incline in a simple driveway will either bog down the engine all the way to stall it, or rev and go nowhere. Once my Engine heat temp is normal, I can drive off - albeit with an appalling loss of power, worse than a gutless truck always. How would I check this stuff? I have the car way up in air, to grease the zerks on my new lower ball joints. Are there also electrical cables I should inspect under there for mouse / chipmunk eatage? (There were tons of nests in the car and engine bay when I bought it). CORRECTION: I cut and pasted the #62 and #63 AT error codes from elsewhere - note the grammatical error on cut n paste too. However, the scanned TSRM from Cgynus X-1 is more clarifying and specific: 62 is 'Severed #1 solenoid or short circuit - severed wire harness or short circuit 63 is 'Severed #2 solenoid or short circuit - severed wire harness or short circuit Not sure where to verify all this, but doing more research now online and will root around under car more too. And another note, the shifting all works, R, D, L, OD etc... it starts in first gear and goes up through 2nd, 3rd and OD. Reverse is fine too. In 'Econ' it shifts early in my opinion, but 'power' is better. So, if anyone wants to send some pointers my way or dealt with these errors / issues let me know!! |
wiring visually looks ok for #1 and #2 ECT Solendoids
Located the #1 and #2 Solenoid wires. Took hours online, they are not listed well.
They are Green - Black and Green - Yellow wires, that run nearly to the back of the transmission driver side and both go into a rubber insert into Trans. (There's one final wire that runs to very back which is something else). Coming back from the AT, it meets a wire connector underneath the intake side of engine, and from there goes to ECT underneath glove box I gather. Wiring into ECT looks brand new, perfect, and all wires are still wrapped and look visually complete everywhere I can spot them. Will try to run the Ohm meter on them tomorrow to double check they are capable of carrying electrical current each way. |
took apart wire loom near front engine - all wires are good, no breaks / shorts
The plastic wire loom looks like shit, but the wires inside are fine looking without any cracks, holes, tears etc... this answers an older posted suggestion.
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Is my TPS toast? Bad throttle position sensor - causing lousy power / bad starts?
Dunno why, a just in case I guess, but I just ohm and volt metered my TPS (Throttle Position Sensor).
Pulled cabled connector to TPS. Connected 15 VDC setting on voltmeter to TPS unit / car side (not electrical wire side). Here's my findings on 2 tests: My 7M GTE motor has a pin config like this starting at top going down to oil pan floor direction (got this right?? - from TSRM) VC VTA IDL E2 All measurements made with key ignition switch 'ON' but motor off / cold and not running. It's 40 degrees F here today and not been started in 2 days. Ohm meter RX100 setting, zeroed dial to '0' with probes connected together at start. IDL - E2 throttle fully closed = 0 (supposed to be less than 2.3 ohm) IDL - E2 WOT = infinity (supposed to be infinity) VC - E2 = 60 ohms (SUPPOSED TO BE 3.9 - 9.0 ohms) - NG VTA - E2 throttle fully closed = 5 ohms (supposed to be 0.47 - 6.1 ohm) VTA - E2 WOT = 35 ohms (SUPPOSED TO BE 3.1 - 12.1 ohm) - NG --------------- 2nd test diagnostic box. My diagnostic box does not list a "TT" connector but has a labelled 'ECT' - that the one I used, voltmeter at 15 VDC setting red probe to 'ECT' pin and neg/blk probe to 'E1' pin. Ignition switch still at 'ON'. Engine off / not running. Car Battery checked in at 12 Volts (it's cold today). no throttle: ECT - E1 reading = 4 Volts WOT: ECT - E1 reading = SAME - 4 Volts, it did not budge at all. Crap, did not measure clearance between lever and stop screw. i remember there is fair amount of slack on the two throttle cables before they would engage anything. Will try to re- check this now. I am not throwing any engine codes (just AT ones) and no code 41 present. I also have insulation exposed on 1 wire to AFM, the Green - Red one. The wire is exposed about 1/4" near AFM. It's not in contact with anything else, but I just noticed this right now (can't really short anywhere that I can think, other cables with it are intact). So, is this a smoking gun that my TPS is bad? Or something else like a relay somewhere bad? All the fuses were good not that long ago, can re-check them. As noted earlier, this car has so little power. It idles immediately at 600 rpms always at cold and warm start up (some start problems in very cold weather where it cranks but won't run over), there is never a high idle no matter how cold she is, or how cold outside. Idles reliably, can't drive for shit cold (will barely move on the flats in any gear), after full Op temp on engine temp gauge it can drive down the road. Can drive at 70 - 75 mph, it's very happy at 70 mph and has some power and runs smooth. Runs like shit at 50 - 55mph at 1700 - 2200 rpms (AT in OD), motor runs ok, but no power, and some light stumbling felt and body quiver. Also started bogging down if I give it 1/4 throttle or more at red light start. I wind up accelerating quite slowly pissing off all behind me. I can tromp it and get the Turbo to whine and spool up and I get a lot more power, but not sports car fast power. Also, I can work with voltmeters no problem. Never ohm-ed a thing in my life so could have been doing it wrong, but seems pretty simple. Can get '1' on certain metal things etc... makes sense to me. Any thoughts my helpful forum people? Thank you. |
please disregard last post. I'd like to say a monkey wrote it and not me
Feeling, uh, stupid. After re-reading a number of things, I think my TPS is actually probably where it's suppose to be.
going to re-check it correctly now. (I did not know where it was scrawled 3.5 - 10.3 that actually probably meant 3500 - 10300 ohms, nor did i realize i was set at Value x 100 which would make a reading of SAY '60' on the meter really mean it was 6000. I apologize for wasting everyone's time here today. (car still runs like sh*t though). |
Heh, yeah those multipliers can be a real bitch. lol. It's okay, I'm sure I've done it.
A bad TPS wouldn't cause significant issues with the operation of the engine... it's just a trim sensor. Worst case scenario you have a poor idle, fuel economy gets a little worse and your throttle response gets a little sloppy. You can actually disconnect the TPS and should be able to drive without noticing a huge difference. Measuring resistance of the TPS isn't as reliable as measuring the actual voltage at the ECU's VTA pin. Should be ~.5v throttle closed and 3.5v throttle wide open. I remember from tuning these cars that the voltage should not exceed 3.48v at WOT. Vc should be at about 5v (around 4.8v measured at any sensor location). I thought I already covered this but that must've been in another thread. |
TPS is good. Strange results for AT error codes 62, 63 from investigation
Thanks Cre!! I always feel better if you are weighing in.
So, yeah got it all sorted. The TPS values are all in the ballpark. I think it's fine. If I measure VTA - E2 at WOT my value is 3.6 at rX1000 VTA - E2 with .9mm simulated gap at throttle stop the value is 5.5 at rx100, 0 at rx1000 VTA - E2 with 0mm gap there, value is 5 at rx100 or 0 at rx1000 (should be 0.2 to 1.2K ohms) IDL - E2 at WOT is infinite. VC - E2 59 at rx100 5.1 at rx1000 (should be 4.25 - 8.25K ohms) There's more I measured but I think this covers it generally. TT (ECT) - E1 at diagnosis box I read under 1 volt and then up to about 7.5 volts at WOT. That all checks out ok. Here's where things get real strange. Still have AT errors 62 and 63 stored. Did a full wiring analysis with visual, resistance and alternative power source. Basically, if I break the 5 pin connector apart from near starter from ECT to transmission, and also when I went all the way to where that connects back to the ECT, if I run a 9 Volt battery + to each pin - Solenoid #1, Solenoid #2 and Solenoid Lock I can activate them all and hear them distinctly click (while grounded to frame). Both at 5 pin breakaway spot, and at ECT ending cable connector spot. Resistance Ohm values in and out of ECT are in spec up these three using brown ECT ground in unit as ground (all 3 are 11 - 12 ohm resistance). However, if I Ohm meter the cable connector that attaches to the ECT near passenger footwell, this is not right. Solenoid #1 pin resistance = infinite Solenoid #2 pin resistance = 70 at rX100 setting AND 19 at rX1000 setting. Solenoid lock resistance = infinite. So, what is this deal here? It would seem that I have electrical wire short or sever. Yet I can send power down these exact pins and activate the solenoids in distant transmission. The damn barn mice didn't get their grubby little jaws on the wiring anywhere near the ECT, it looks like this whole area just rolled off the factory floor. So am in crazy crazy land? (I think I bought a big piece of property there anyway with this car...) |
ECT to B2 to AT wire connections make no sense in my '88 7M GTE -no ground connection
Ok here's the deal:
Have wire connector out from ECT near passenger footwell. It connects to 6 pin connector 'B' style right next to engine starter motor (using 5 pins of 6 available slots). From this connector next wire goes straight to AT where it splits into 2 branches, one to back 1/3 of AT, one branch to very back of AT. ECT wire to B connector (near starter): 5 pins female at connector: Green/Black = Solenoid #1 Green/Yellow = Solenoid #2 Blue / Red = Solenoid Lock up Red / Green = T/M Speed sensor Brown = Ground (from ECT it hits a Junction box, according to TEWD, and splits to a ground to body and to this wire to Connector B) B connector wire (near starter) to AT: 4 PINS male ONLY here - where's the stupid ground going to?? - nowhere. No pin to hook into it. It simply terminates in the connector. Wtf, that makes no sense. AND according to '87 and '89 TEWD my wiring colors are off here anyway direct to AT - they are supposed to match colors above. Here's what they are in real life. Solenoid #1 pin = White Solenoid #2 pin = Black Solenoid Lock up = Yellow T/M Speed sensor = Red Am I over thinking this?? My solenoids I can activate all 3 at the ECT end wire with a 9 Volt battery and hear them all click, I also did the same at the male connector pins at B connector (the wh, blk, yell pins - they all click here too). Yet my AT transmission codes 62 & 63 are still up and are saying I have a severed or shorted connection on both Solenoid #1 and #2 in the AT. And even more on my mind, if Solenoid #1 and / or #2 really was not functioning at all or properly, could that somehow generate a massive drag in the powertrain and account for my horrible 13 m.p.g. driving as lightly as possible, and low car pulling power and when cold the car will hardly move when idle speed is perfect etc... ?? It drives off ok when engine op temp is normal (with low power issues the norm since I bought car). |
now resistance figure are correct all way to AT from ECT - go figure
this a.m. i reconnected B connector from ECT to AT, that's all I did.
I re- Ohm tested the 3 solenoids and guess what? They are all metering in at around 11 ohms - in spec, where it was supposed to be. Either means I tested it wrong or read Ohm meter wrong first time (possible since new to Ohm -ing), or the connector was not good before and solid at least now. So two previous posts earlier, ignore the bad ohm values on Solenoid #1, #2 and Lock. (the infinites and 70 / 19 ohm - not that value today). Hello crazy. |
uh, yeah.
So. So.
My car has decided to re-set it's own AT error codes. With all this electrical diagnosis, the only thing I 'changed' was unplug that 5 female to 4 pin connector to the trans and re-connect it. Now it all Ohms right. And my AT error codes have vanished - no I never pulled the EFI fuse or disconnected the battery in any way. Also, even the car has only idled several times and rev-ed and not driven, my engine codes were clear when I parked it before all this work, and now I am throwing a code #24. I think I need a rum and coke. |
stupid car did it to me again, no start #4 - cranks all day, won't run
- new batt (few months old)
- full gas tank 94 Octane from 5 days ago - TPS set correctly - just set ignition timing correct to 11 degrees (10 was rough) with gun and jumpered correctly terminals - ignition coils wiring all looks good secure - FP to B+ I can hear fuel rushing into throttle body area - Alt. good, it re-charged drained new batt in 30 minutes (see below). it did just start and idled immediately at 600 rpms in 40 degree F weather. I put it in 'R' and gassed it down slightest incline (to see if all the AT work fixed it not really able to move when cold). Drove back 30 yards fine and with some pep. Put it in 'D' to drive back up slight incline and gave it 1/4 - 1/3 throttle and it bogged down and died. Won't start now at all. cranks and cranks. sometimes almost acts like it's going to with going up and down on the throttle but no go. (no throttle now it's not close to starting). First time it did start no throttle. Frustrated, need to go. I experiment. Waiting several minutes and not cranking more than 15 sec mostly. FP - B+ for a minute. Then try, crank, no start. FP - B+ while I crank with hearing fuel rushing, no start. Then I pull the EFI 15a fuse just in case there is some stupid computer error that needs to re-set. Put back in, nothing. Pulled neg batt terminal off, will give it 30 min and re-try. This car pulled this stunt after sitting for 3 hours last week. I'd try, wait, try... for 8 hours until I gave up with dead batt. Got ride back next day with truck and jumped it and it started 2nd try. Then batt charged in 30 minutes so it could easily re-start itself. Re-started it 5 - 6 times no problem over next few days. 4th time this happened in cold(er) weather. Never happened in warm, but did not drive it that much this past fall. Only thing I did that last time was take neg batt terminal off over night. So trying that now - yeah I know, it won't work, but what the hell. I can hear relay click in car passenger side, and my TEMS activate or something like that. Ignition coil and igniter wires look hooked up solidly and ok. Spark plugs look ok 3000 miles ago. Had cleared my engine error codes and not been back after driving 40 miles and 4 starts (originally O2 sensor and ignition coil / igniter error codes up). This a.m. to last re-check error codes I suddenly have a '24' I never had before and have not driven the car since it was last cleared. '24' is 'Intake air temp sensor signal' - I did just pull that connector to check it with ohm / volt meter the other day, and thanks Toyota for putting the pins mounted upside down so I could not get probes into it while actually seeing what I was touching. Re-hooked it back up, at least the connector looked clean. It might have idled a few times after I was setting the ignition timing after all the codes were clear. Also, just tried the re-start after batt neg term back. No start. Just swapped igniter (had extra one that came with car). No start. Sort of almost but sort of doesn't count. Don't know what to do. My only car and I have to work. This is now Dr Jekyl and Mr. Car. Surprise! Who you gonna get today? |
Bewildered - problems: boiling coolant at idle now, low power, hard / no start random
7M-GTE stock. AT. 131K. Symptoms:
Very low power since I've owned it. WOT 1.5 years back and the the car would turbo up and pull strong after low power not on the boost. Now, it is much weaker. Sat a lot in 1.5 years. Recently in 55-65 degree F weather, the car temp shot up in a parking lot (after hwy driving 1.5 hours - but no high temp there except up not steep hill where my turbo boost sat at +4 and I saw the temp go way up). The coolant makes horrible boiling gurgling noises. Very hot overflow reservoir. Car idles at 600-650 instantly on start up. IF it starts. Always starts warm, but sometimes won't start no matter what when cold - cranks and cranks. New batt, new water pump, new T Stat and I clipped toggle and drilled 4mm hole TPS checks out in spec. ECT seems to pass all ohm / volt testing correct. Alt working properly. Each pair of spark leads shows pulse on timing gun. Set timing properly - or nearly to 11 degrees. Pulled CPS and replaced seal and set correctly with timing gun. Fuel pump sends fuel with FP - B+ jumped. Can hear whine from pump underneath rear of car too. Car has sat a lot since 2004/5. Only occasional runs up and down private road. No info on HG / BHG or other issues. Because it's sat around a lot, and previous owner just added 1-2 gallons of regular gas here and there and drove it 1/4 mile on occasion, I am thinking the fuel filter is clogged?? That's my new theory. I am in hopes it's super clogged and causing this all, the super low power, and the hesitation after trying to drive off normal from a full stop, and even the occasional refusing to start. Anyone want to chime in? (have not check the AFM, or cold start injector - is that a joke where the access to get at the electrical connector and CSI or I am looking at the wrong thing?) Thanks!! |
wow Exactly same here smh what hell with supra nowdayz but still hav faith in it just dont know where to look at now. mine keep trying to engage n pop then back to crank then start do same thing over again wit backfires thats how im amuse i have sparks and fuel and what abt air??
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ever fix this?
Old thread, but if you check back here, did you fix this? I had similar symptoms, ran horribly, very hot at idle. Did you check cam timing as well as ignition? and check for correct hook up of all coils from ignitor/to plugs? mistiming definitely could run rough, low power and very hot.
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Hmmm... Interesting I did not check that.
Unless you mean the cam position sensor. If so, yes I did make triple sure that was set correctly. I did not really triple check the wiring from the igniter but I am sure it's always been routed the same since I bought the car. Anyway... I think I've tossed in the towel on this car. I'm going to list it up for sale here. Either as whole car or whole car plus the parts. I have no time at all to mess with it anymore. It's sat too long now since I had started to replace the fuel filter. |
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