riddle me this

jeepkaiser65 · 12-11-2006, 06:23 AM

I have tried this
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...read.php?t=323
and this
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/
but didnt leave this out to try
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/search.php?

Im showing no codes, and havent gained to much info from the other 2. I have the engine at tdc on the compression stroke, The notch marks are align with cover #3. The balancer is at 0. The crown of the piston is at top, but the cam lobe is not visible in the oil filler neck. So I try to start it and it backfires and backfires, and ....well it dont run. Im definintley geting spark(shocked myself purty good). My injectors are working and getting fuel(purged at the banjo fitting), and Im getting air. Now thinking mechanicaly, The only way for fire to come up through the plentium is for a valve to be open, and even though the lobe aint pointing where it should it is is oppisite and dosent look like it has the valve open, but who knows??? Im about to donate this car to my jeep for crawling practice...

jeepkaiser65 · 12-12-2006, 06:12 AM

anyone have any advice?

Bill UK · 12-12-2006, 12:59 PM

If its miss firing it sounds like the timing is slightly out, have you tried moving the cam sensor/distributor slightly when trying to start it. I had the same problem on a non turbo some years ago, reposition the distributor and it started .

rnoswal · 12-12-2006, 02:00 PM

Well, follow the instructions about using a jumper wire and then try timing the car. Almost all cars have to be adjusted some if the cam position sensor has been moved or the distributor. They both react the same way.

If you can pull a spark plug and screw in the compression guage without the guage, then turn it over until it blows hard out of the hose. You can use a long, narrow screw driver and manually turn the engine over until it is pretty close to TDC.

That should get you in the ball game as far as compression stroke. If the piston is up but at neither time does it blow a low of air out of the hose when the piston is comin up on the compression stroke, then you have your valve timing off and that has to be fixed first.

Just pull the upper timing cover off and when the notch on the crank pulley reaches the 0, the 2 dots for the exhaust and intake grears should line up with the notches on the backing plate behind the gears. If not then it has slipped a tooth or more and may be out of tension or even broken, the belt I mean.

Get the notches lined up with the #1 piston at TDC, then turn the engine over again to make sure it blows hard out on the compression stroke. Then line up the cam position sensor, or distributor and leave it loose while cranking it. If you run out of adjustment then pull it out and rotate it back or forward and try starting it up. You should be able to get it running. If it is backfiring and popping then it is about 180 degrees out so pull the cam postioning sensor, rotate it 180 and try it again. I sounds like timing, but could be cam timing too if that was messed with at all.

Let us know how it goes.

Russ

jeepkaiser65 · 12-12-2006, 06:17 PM

Allright Ill try that again. I have had it at tdc w/ the matchmarks aligned and have posistioned the cps through all the teeth on the shaft. I understand that its gotta be some kind of timing issue. I use a welding rod to make sure its fullt at tdc. Ill let yall know

drmmr15 · 02-02-2007, 10:36 PM

Sorry to bump an old thread, but rnoswal seems to have good info. I have a problem. I removed my Cam Position Sensor, and am wondering how to set the Cam position sensor so I know its on the correct tooth? Pictures would greatly help

I am used to distributors, so any info would help. Thanks.

jeepkaiser65 · 02-03-2007, 05:46 AM

Im still not having any luck....I think its the air flow meter... I dunno....

IHateHacks · 02-03-2007, 05:11 PM

"The notch marks are align with cover #3. The balancer is at 0. The crown of the piston is at top, but the cam lobe is not visible in the oil filler neck"

The only thing that would cause this (as you described) would be someone putting the cam gears on the cams the wrong way. Have the gears been off the cams?

drmmr15-

This is where the cam sensor should be pointing with the engine at TDC and with the ignition timing set to 10 degrees BTDC. This is NOT how the sensor goes in as it turns as it meshes with the exhaust cam's cam sensor gear.

"If you run out of adjustment then pull it out and rotate it back or forward and try starting it up. You should be able to get it running. If it is backfiring and popping then it is about 180 degrees out so pull the cam postioning sensor, rotate it 180 and try it again"

Incorrect. If you take a distributor or cam sensor out, you must set the engine to TDC before you put it back in. You don't go pulling it out, turning it and sticking it back in.

jeepkaiser65 · 02-04-2007, 05:37 AM

Thats about how it looks

IHateHacks · 02-04-2007, 03:22 PM

That pic was for drmmr15. Remember drmmr15, the engine MUST be at TDC when the CPS looks like that. And while you have the CPS out I would replace the O-ring. It's a dealer only part and its $2.35. Takes 1 minute to change.

For you jeepkaiser65, I asked if the cam gears were taken off the cams recently? Because the way you describe your problem, it sounds like someone installed them the wrong way. There are 3 different holes in the camshaft to install the pin. The pin should be in the center hole of the camshaft AND the cam gear, and the center hole should line up with the marks on the No.2 timing belt cover.

You also said this- "I understand that its gotta be some kind of timing issue."

Remember there are 2 kinds of timing for every internal combustion engine, ignition timing, which, in this case, has to do with the Cam Position Sensor (which I knew wasn't your problem, you verified that), and there is valve timing, which has to do with the cams. You said it's something mechanical, and you are right.

12-12-2006, 06:12 AM	#2
jeepkaiser65 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: san antonio Tx Posts: 68	anyone have any advice? __________________ Id rather die on my feet then live on my knees

12-12-2006, 06:17 PM	#5
jeepkaiser65 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: san antonio Tx Posts: 68	Allright Ill try that again. I have had it at tdc w/ the matchmarks aligned and have posistioned the cps through all the teeth on the shaft. I understand that its gotta be some kind of timing issue. I use a welding rod to make sure its fullt at tdc. Ill let yall know __________________ Id rather die on my feet then live on my knees

02-02-2007, 10:36 PM	#6
drmmr15 3" Exhaust Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 73	Sorry to bump an old thread, but rnoswal seems to have good info. I have a problem. I removed my Cam Position Sensor, and am wondering how to set the Cam position sensor so I know its on the correct tooth? Pictures would greatly help I am used to distributors, so any info would help. Thanks. __________________ 1987 Supra Turbo GReddy TT Open Element Filter (<---not sure what brand) YAY BOOST!!!!....finally...

02-03-2007, 05:46 AM	#7
jeepkaiser65 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: san antonio Tx Posts: 68	Im still not having any luck....I think its the air flow meter... I dunno.... __________________ Id rather die on my feet then live on my knees

02-03-2007, 05:11 PM	#8
IHateHacks 20psi boost Join Date: May 2006 Location: New Haven/Hamden Posts: 793	"The notch marks are align with cover #3. The balancer is at 0. The crown of the piston is at top, but the cam lobe is not visible in the oil filler neck" The only thing that would cause this (as you described) would be someone putting the cam gears on the cams the wrong way. Have the gears been off the cams? drmmr15- This is where the cam sensor should be pointing with the engine at TDC and with the ignition timing set to 10 degrees BTDC. This is NOT how the sensor goes in as it turns as it meshes with the exhaust cam's cam sensor gear. "If you run out of adjustment then pull it out and rotate it back or forward and try starting it up. You should be able to get it running. If it is backfiring and popping then it is about 180 degrees out so pull the cam postioning sensor, rotate it 180 and try it again" Incorrect. If you take a distributor or cam sensor out, you must set the engine to TDC before you put it back in. You don't go pulling it out, turning it and sticking it back in. Last edited by IHateHacks; 02-03-2007 at 05:15 PM.

12-11-2006, 06:23 AM	#1
jeepkaiser65 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: san antonio Tx Posts: 68	riddle me this I have tried this http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...read.php?t=323 and this http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/ but didnt leave this out to try http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/search.php? Im showing no codes, and havent gained to much info from the other 2. I have the engine at tdc on the compression stroke, The notch marks are align with cover #3. The balancer is at 0. The crown of the piston is at top, but the cam lobe is not visible in the oil filler neck. So I try to start it and it backfires and backfires, and ....well it dont run. Im definintley geting spark(shocked myself purty good). My injectors are working and getting fuel(purged at the banjo fitting), and Im getting air. Now thinking mechanicaly, The only way for fire to come up through the plentium is for a valve to be open, and even though the lobe aint pointing where it should it is is oppisite and dosent look like it has the valve open, but who knows??? Im about to donate this car to my jeep for crawling practice... __________________ Id rather die on my feet then live on my knees

12-12-2006, 12:59 PM	#3
Bill UK AEM EMS Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: UK Posts: 891	If its miss firing it sounds like the timing is slightly out, have you tried moving the cam sensor/distributor slightly when trying to start it. I had the same problem on a non turbo some years ago, reposition the distributor and it started .

12-12-2006, 02:00 PM	#4
rnoswal Lexus & 550's Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bossier City LA Posts: 556	Well, follow the instructions about using a jumper wire and then try timing the car. Almost all cars have to be adjusted some if the cam position sensor has been moved or the distributor. They both react the same way. If you can pull a spark plug and screw in the compression guage without the guage, then turn it over until it blows hard out of the hose. You can use a long, narrow screw driver and manually turn the engine over until it is pretty close to TDC. That should get you in the ball game as far as compression stroke. If the piston is up but at neither time does it blow a low of air out of the hose when the piston is comin up on the compression stroke, then you have your valve timing off and that has to be fixed first. Just pull the upper timing cover off and when the notch on the crank pulley reaches the 0, the 2 dots for the exhaust and intake grears should line up with the notches on the backing plate behind the gears. If not then it has slipped a tooth or more and may be out of tension or even broken, the belt I mean. Get the notches lined up with the #1 piston at TDC, then turn the engine over again to make sure it blows hard out on the compression stroke. Then line up the cam position sensor, or distributor and leave it loose while cranking it. If you run out of adjustment then pull it out and rotate it back or forward and try starting it up. You should be able to get it running. If it is backfiring and popping then it is about 180 degrees out so pull the cam postioning sensor, rotate it 180 and try it again. I sounds like timing, but could be cam timing too if that was messed with at all. Let us know how it goes. Russ

02-04-2007, 05:37 AM	#9
jeepkaiser65 3" Exhaust Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: san antonio Tx Posts: 68	Thats about how it looks __________________ Id rather die on my feet then live on my knees

02-04-2007, 03:22 PM	#10
IHateHacks 20psi boost Join Date: May 2006 Location: New Haven/Hamden Posts: 793	That pic was for drmmr15. Remember drmmr15, the engine MUST be at TDC when the CPS looks like that. And while you have the CPS out I would replace the O-ring. It's a dealer only part and its $2.35. Takes 1 minute to change. For you jeepkaiser65, I asked if the cam gears were taken off the cams recently? Because the way you describe your problem, it sounds like someone installed them the wrong way. There are 3 different holes in the camshaft to install the pin. The pin should be in the center hole of the camshaft AND the cam gear, and the center hole should line up with the marks on the No.2 timing belt cover. You also said this- "I understand that its gotta be some kind of timing issue." Remember there are 2 kinds of timing for every internal combustion engine, ignition timing, which, in this case, has to do with the Cam Position Sensor (which I knew wasn't your problem, you verified that), and there is valve timing, which has to do with the cams. You said it's something mechanical, and you are right. Last edited by IHateHacks; 02-04-2007 at 03:40 PM.