Water in Oil???? HG???
 

I recently picked up two 87 tubro supras. One of them runs but supposedly had a blown headgasket. The previous owner said they HG blew and he paid a shop to replace it. He drove the car for a week then he said the HG blew again. So he just parked the car and havent touched it since. Well I bought them and satuday, I charged the battery, started it up and it had a rough idle for a sec then it would idle around 3000rpm. It was smoking white from the exhaust, and smelt like burnt coolant and oil so I assumed it was the HG. Pulled the head sat and the gasket nor the heads show signs of a BHG. Drained the oil and it looked like a yoohoo. It was real milky, so I know coolant was getting in the oil somehow. Which is what scares me. Now, when I went to reomve the head bolts only about two of them were some what tight to where I had to actually use a little effort to break them loose. The rest were really easy to loosin. Does this sound like the problem? Or should I be concerned about the block being cracked?

Also since the head was already worked and the car only lasted a week would ya'll have it rechecked?

Thanks!

If they were as easy to get off as you said and there are no signs of BHG on the head/gasket then i would just go ahead and buy a new HG and possibly bolts and give her another go.
If you wanted to play it safe just get the head milled and throw on a new gasket and ARP's.
How long did it sit with BHG?

Oh I promise you they were that loose. I wish I woulda thought about getting my TQ wrench out and seeing what they were. Where the turbo mounts to the manifold were twice as tight as the head bolt. I hate to have it milled down again if its already been done. The cams and all are still silver so its obvious it was cleaned and checked. I guess im going to check everything with a straight edge then clean the block and head real good and like you said give it another shot.

The car sat for almost a year with the BHG. Not moved, not started until last saturday.

How do the head bolt threads in the block look? Lots of junk/grime? Nice and clean?

What kind of head gasket did you pull off that engine, a metal or stock one?

What kind of head bolts, stock 10mm allen head or 12point ARP's?

Your rod bearings took a beating with all that coolant in the crankcase, I hope it wasn't ran like that for very long.

Bolt holes look clean, they do have some coolant in them from when I pulled the head. Im going to run a tap through them to clean all the debris out.

It was a stock gasket that was pulled off. I can post pics if needed. I looked and looked over it and I couldnt ever find where it would be messed up.

It was the stock 10mm allen head bolts. It kinda looked as if they were reused after the swap. Cant verify that though.

Yeah I knew the bearings had it rough, Im going to run some oil through it, change it then keep and eye on it. I think they will be fine. If not I already have a 7mgte motor with 84,000 on it I can swap out if needed. Gona run this one till it dies.

I ordered a headgasket kit, and arp studs today so hopefully this weekend I can get it back together and hope for the best. Im not even going to bother with having the head done. Ill clean it up with brake kleen then get all the gasket off of it then check it with a straight edge.

You said in your first post that the previous owner had a shop replace the HG, so that means they torqued the bolts to 58ft/lbs. Even if they did use new dealer head bolts, at 58ft/lbs they will stretch. Because it happened so soon after the first gasket was replaced I'd bet they reused the head bolts. That head gasket didn't blow, it was undertorqued and allowed coolant to flow over/under the gasket. Thats why you can't find the defect in it. It happens to 99% of MK3 supras, head gasket didn't blow out, the head bolts were stretched and allowed coolant to flow over/under it. The other 1% have the actually blown out gasket.

By the way I love your avatar.

Thats what Im thinking... Found lots of good news yesterday. The odometer says 199,XXXmi. Well the previous owner had the paperwork from everytime the car had been serviced all the way back to 97. In 1999 toyota rebuilt the entire motor, and the odometer reading on the form says 115,631. So that means this motor only has a little over 80,000mi on it.

Anyways back on subject new gasket kit and ARP studs should be here wed and Ill get back on it and have it back running by the weekend. Hopefully!

lol, at the avatar. My sig, avatar and all I have over on LS1tech so I just copied and pasted everything over here.

Block surfaced cleaned, head cleaned inside and out. Gaskets arrived yesterday. My arp bolts are suppose to be here today. The head and gasket are waiting for install this afternoon. Hope my new gasket will be alright, a small section on the driverside corner was bent. (Behind the last bolt on driverside) I straightned it back out with a pair of needle nose. It shouldnt leak its on the very edge. Should all be down hill after today. Hopefully fingers crossed!

Stupid question- If the #1 piston is all the way up then its TDC right? Ive been reading about the whole setting timing thing and this dual overhead cam stuff is really confusing.

Ya I'm shooting for wed. or thurs. to put my head back on.

If your'e really worried about the hg send it back and get another one. But your'e right it sounds like it should be fine.

Good Luck.

if 1 and six or (front and back) are up flush w/ block then it is TDC

TDC is when the notch on the crank pulley lines up with the 0 degree mark on the lower timing belt cover. Every time the crank pulley notch lines up with the 0 degree mark, the no.1 piston is on TDC.

Since the head is off the block, there is only one TDC. But when you put the head on, there are 2 TDC's. It's the same with any engine OHC, DOHC or OHV. One is on the compression stroke and the valves are closed and the cam gear matchmarks line up with the notches on the inner timing belt cover. The other is on the exhaust stroke with the exhaust valves open and the cam gear matchmarks are 180 degrees to the notches on the inner timing belt cover. Every 4 stroke engine has 2 TDC's, even your OHV "cam in the block" camaro. For every 2 revolutions of the crank, the cam(s) revolve once.

So, before you place the head on, make sure the crank pulley notch lines up with the 0 on the lower timing belt cover. Then when you install the timing belt you determine what TDC it is on. With the cam gear marks lined up with the notches in the inner timing belt cover you are on the correct TDC. I know it sounds confusing but it really isn't. Did you build the motor in your camaro that you list in your sig? If you did, then when you put the timing chain on you did the same thing, crank gear was lined up with the cam gear mark. Then, if you spun the crank 1 revolution, the cam gear no longer lined up, yet the no.1 piston was at TDC again. Spin the crank 1 move revolution and the gears lined up again.

You'll see what I mean when you put the timing belt on. Spin the crank one revolution from the 0 degree mark and you'll see the cams only moved 180 degrees yet you come back to the 0 mark on the crank which means the piston is on TDC, but on the exhaust stroke.

As long as the crank pulley notch is lined up with the 0 mark on the lower timing belt cover you are good to go. Then when the head is on, just line up the cam gears with their notches in the inner timing belt cover, install the timing belt and you are straight. Then its time to install the CPS (Cam Position Sensor). But we will cross that bridge when we get there.

Thats what I was thinking. But the repair manual worded it a little differently. I understand what you mean!

Yep, I built the motor in the camaro. The cam sprocket had a dot and the crank sprocket had a dot. You line them up 6 oclock and 12 o clock and your set. Any timing changes that need to be made I do with my laptop (HPTuners). There is no CPS that has to be moved.

Thanks man, thats what I needed!

Just a little update. The head is on and torque'd to 78ftlbs with new ARP bolts. The lower intake it on, the upper intake is on, TB , altenator, timing belt, timing cover, valve cover, spark plugs, plug wires, coil packs, coil pack cover, all the vaccum lines on drivers side (hope their right) all are on.

Had to order a waterpump gasket. Ill pick that up today after work. All that I like is the water pump, turbo, fan, thermostat housing and CPS. I should knock all that out today and fire her up tonight.

Ive got everything on the drivers side I can find pluged up, but I found an extra brown plug that looks like and injector plug that was broke, Meaning the wires are there but the plug was on the ground. Ive looked everywhere to see where this would plug but I can find anything. The wires are red and red with blue. Anybody have an idea where this could go? Also I noticed the AC compressor has a brown wire running off of it thats cut and not connected to anything. Where should this go? And last on the drivers side towards the back of the block there are 2 green clear plugs and a white plug with a jumper in it that were just hanging there when I got the car, any idea what these are for? Ill try to get pics of each wire today and post them up so maybe that will help see what Im talking about.

Thanks!

BTW- Ive looked on my other car and dont see any of these wires so I have no clue where they go.

Ok, everything is complete and put back together. Tried to start it up and nothing. It will just turn over. Im assuming the timing isnt right. The battery is also weak to so that could be some of the problem. Also there is a vacuum line or fresh air tube thats on the bottom of the piping right behind the air filter that I cant find where it goes. Its about 12in long and pre bent so it doesnt go far.

Any thoughts on what to try to get it to start?

theres a lil spot for that hose about 12 inches below the dist cap about a 1/4 inch to the left of another vaccum outlet, at least thats where the line coming from my intake hose goes to on my 86.5 n/a. Then we could be talking about two totally different things, i'll take a pic when day light comes around if you still need it.

I'd bet money that you didn't install the CPS correctly. Don't feel bad, I did it too the first time I removed it like 2 years ago.

That brown connector that looks like an injector connector is for one of the VSV's that mount underneath the intake manifold.

That 12" hard vacuum pipe near the air box, the nipple near the motor goes to the BVSV on the top of the thermostat housing, its blue. The nipple that is farthest from the motor goes to the charcoal canister. Both vacuum lines that attach to this prebent hard pipe are about 16" long, maybe shorter.

Now that you already turned the motor over and installed the upper timing belt cover, finding the correct TDC is going to be slightly hard unless you drop the coolant and take the thermostat housing off to take the upper timing belt cover off to line the notches up with the cam marks. I hope you can understand what I just said. Only other way to find the correct TDC without dropping the coolant and taking the thermostat housing off, is to take the No.1 cylinders spark plug out and turn the crank with a rachet and when the crank nears the 0 mark on the lower timing belt cover listen to how much air comes out of the spark plug hole, if you hear a rush of air come out you are on TDC of the compressions stroke (all valves closed) if you dont hear any air come out you are on TDC of the exhaust stroke (exhaust valves open, air is escaping out of the valves instead of the spark plug hole). I suggest just dropping the coolant and lining the cams up.

Now, when you find the correct TDC, you have to install the CPS a certain way. I think its page IG-22 in the TSRM. Pretty much, when the CPS is installed correctly the rotor is about 1/2" to the right of the top pickup coil. I can post a picture if you need it. The TSRM explains how to line the drilled mark on the CPS shaft with the groove on the CPS housing which will line the rotor tip exactly with the top pickup coil. It's really not that hard, let me know if you need a more through explanation with pics.

Good luck.

That was it, pulled it out and realigned and it started right up. SO thats fixed.


I couldve swore I plugged that up, I checked and there isnt anything else left to plug up. Could it be the IAT sensor? I have an ses for that.

I got that fixed, it actually went right behind the power steering pump.

Other then that, the car ran real good all day. Until I washed underneath the hood. Now it spits, spuuters, down on power and it gurggles like its overheating but according to the temp guage its not over heating. So im not sure what going on.

Also after the first oil change, I now have a slight knock under load. Not loud, and not always there. Im hopeing that its something loose.

Got 3 ses codes, 21,34,52 One is MAF, one is knock sensor and the other is the IAT so its not to bad I dont guess.

Im going to try and take it my uncle tommorow and see what he thinks. Hes a head mechanic at a local toyota dealership. Also, the boost gauge is only showing like 6psi, I installed two washers (.025) behind the wastegate so I thought it should be around 10psi or so. Is this a timing issue? All Ive adjusted it basically the CPS just so the car will idle.

Im starting to see the light, Or so I thought. Hopefully by tommorow it will be up to par.

Thanks!

Messed with the car all day and it still isnt right. The plugs had water on them so I cleaned all the wires, and water. Swapped the plugs and still acting stupid. It will start up fine, idle fine but spit and sputter at 2200-2500rpm. It wnat rev any higher then 2500rpm. I dont know whats up. I guess something is still wet. I pulled the hood and just going to let it sit outside all day tommorow. Any ideas?

Listen to what the ecu is telling you, your MAF is malfunctioning. You can test it with a multimeter, but if its throwing a code and its running like that, its a safe bet that's the problem. Plus the IAT sensor is an integral part of the MAF.

Only other thing I can think of is a clogged cat.

You said you have 2 turbo supras, so swap out the MAF.

Did you set base ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC? Do you know how to disable the electronic advance to be able to set base ignition timing? If not, just ask I'd be more than happy to assist you.

Slight knock under load eh? *Cough* rod bearings....*Cough*

I thought about that, but then again its thrown that code since the day Ive started the car and it ran fine all day until I washed under the hood. What kind of voltage should I be seeing so I can test it today?

I know the cat is clogged, I had planned on putting it on the lift sunday to pull it and knock it out. But I couldnt ever get it to run right to make it to my shop. You can hear it stopped up. It sounds like a leak in the cat.

Tried that also, the other car is missing the hole airbox pipe, so there is no maf there.

Correct the timing is set. Aligned all marks TDC then adjusted the CPS to 11* while jumping the two terminals T & E.

Oh lord, its a faint knock. Oil pressure looks good but its defiantly a possibility after seeing all the water Ive drained out of this thing. Looks like Ill be pulling the motor from the donor car and start building it up. Until the day the other dies.

Kinda starting to regret buying these cars. Seems like its always going to be something.

Yep, these cars will suck you dry and keep asking for more. Why do you think they are so rare? It's because people just get fed up with them and junk 'em. It takes alot of patience and knowledge to put up with a MK3 supra. You must have a passion for them, or its just not going to work out, kinda like a relationship :)

You should test the resistance of the MAF. Take the MAF off the intake piping. Now, looking at the terminals with the MAF upright (rectangular air box side to the left, circular turbo side to the right) the terminals are labeled from left to right E1, Vc, Ks, THA, E2. Heres the chart from the TSRM:

Ks -> E1 should have infinite resistance.
E1 -> Ks should be between 5-10K ohms.
Vc -> E1 should be between 10-15K ohms.
E1 -> Vc should be between 5-10K ohms.
THA -> E2 is ambient temperature dependant.
At 32F resistance should be 4-7K ohms.
At 68F resistance should be 2-3K ohms.
At 104F resistance should be .9-1.3K ohms.
Basically the resistance should fall as the temperature increases.

Now gut that cat or buy a test pipe and see what happens. And I was just busting your balls about the rod knock, it really sounds like preignition to me, have you been running 93 octane or 87?

Thanks man! Sounds like you really know your stuff when it comes to these cars.

Ill test it this afternoon and see whats up.

Its got 87 in it. Also Im sure the old gas from it sitting up doenst help at all. I put some 105 octane booster in it to try and help it some.

Lol, Im still going to start building the other that way im not in a rush. It does sound like some knock or somehting is loose, doesnt sound like a rod bearing.

Worked on the supra for a bit this afternoon and found that the TB is sucking air. Its right between the intake and the TB. I pulled it off and plan on putting a new gasket tommorrow. If only this is going to be my problem.

I just took it for granted that you didn't have any vacuum leaks.

A vacuum leak after the MAF will cause a check engine light (for the MAF) and will also cause a lean condition which will cause that pinging sound you hear.

I think the TB gasket will fix your problem.

I did to until I could hear a small hiss under the hood. So I broke out the starting fluid and started spraying around where everywhere something meets up. And sure enough, I spray it around the TB and the car tries to die. So bingo, found a vacuum leak. I should know this afternoon whether or not it does fix it. Right now it seems to start and idle fine, a little hesitant when you give it gas but will not rev past 2500rpm. Its like its hitting the fuel cutoff. But I wonder why it would run fine for a whole day then i wash under the hood and it all of a sudden gets a vacuum leak. Its crazy!

I also took the cat off and gutted it. So maybe that will help a bit. I also plan on swapping out the fuel filter today to.

Ok fixed the TB from leaking and changed out the fuel filter and its still doing the same thing. It revs, spits sputters, backfires and want go anywhere. Ive checked every plug and connector on the car for moisture and all are clean and dry. Timing is right at 11-12* idling. Ive pulled the timing cover to verify the cam sprockets and crank line up with each other and they do. the crank mark will be on 0 and both cam sprocket marks are with the mark on the backing plate. Still throwing the 31 code for the maf but thats it. All the rest are gone. Im at a dead end with this car. I dont know what else to try anyboy have and suggestion?

IT FINALLY RUNS! Replaced the igniter with one off my parts car and bam, runs like a champ. Still got the MAF code and its a little low on power but its running is the main thing. About to do a compression check on all cylinders and seewhere that stands. Also have some rod knock. Thought maybe it was something loose but its defiantly rod knock. Im going to track down a MAF and see if I can rid of that code and then Ill start form there. Going to pull the motor from the donor car this weekend and start getting it ready to be swapped when this one dies. I did shim the waste gate .022 so the boost was right at 7psi. I dont guess ill up the boost until I get the new motor ready. But thankfully she's running.

RIGHT ON MAN.

I have been keeping up with both threads, but haven't had anything helpfull to add. So call it learning.

Glad it worked out.