trading for a supra?

[braaaaawp88]

I am pretty uneducated when it comes to supras, but here it goes...so I found this supra on craigslist 1995 Toyota Supra 700whp-76mm Turbo and I figured I would shoot him an offer. I talked to the guy on the phone and received alot of positive information. Car was bought from Redline Performance in NC and all the modifications were installed by them professionally. Carfax is clean and it is in good condition. Went and looked at her today and the body has no dents or anything just a few little nicks and scratches that i could touch up. Car is a monster and runs great but has a few minor flaws that kinda bother me. No AC or radio, speedometer is not hooked up, there are two holes in the dash cause the roll cage was gonna run through there but they ended up deciding not to, leather on the seats reflect the age of the car, and the passenger carpet is in perfect condition just not tucked in, just little things like that that. He said he would fix alot of those If was gonna buy it, but it still bothers me. He said he'd take my STI 2006 Subaru Impreza STI plus $3500 cash for it. I may be able to talk him down lower but we will see. He is asking 31k for his car and I am asking 21k for mine. The KBB for the supra completely stock is $25,700 and mine is $22,700. I feel like I could make money off of this car when I resell it but It would definitely be from a car enthusiast. I paid 19k for my STI about 8 months ago so all I would have to resell the Supra for would be $22,500 and I would not have lost any money. Car is running conservative tunes for what the 2JZ engine is capable of so I am not too worried of engine problems but there is always a chance. What do you guys think, is it a good deal???? and what should I have checked out before I decide to buy it???....he said his roommate works at a car shop so we could go and have the whole car inspected before I buy it.

Thanks, John

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

I am pretty uneducated when it comes to supras, but here it goes...so I found this supra on craigslist 1995 Toyota Supra 700whp-76mm Turbo and I figured I would shoot him an offer. I talked to the guy on the phone and received alot of positive information. Car was bought from Redline Performance in NC and all the modifications were installed by them professionally....

Did you see the receipts... or any paperwork on the modifications?

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Carfax is clean and it is in good condition. Went and looked at her today and the body has no dents or anything just a few little nicks and scratches that i could touch up. Car is a monster and runs great but has a few minor flaws that kinda bother me. No AC...

Is the whole AC system ripped out, or is it just non-functional?

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...or radio...

To me, this isn't a big deal, since you will probably upgrade to an aftermarket sound system if you regularly drive it.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

..., speedometer is not hooked up, there are two holes in the dash...

The MKIV dash is a lot of labor to remove - be sure count that into your offer (of course, the cost of the dash itself is substantial as well!).

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

... cause the roll cage was gonna run through there but they ended up deciding not to, leather on the seats reflect the age of the car...

Another no-biggie to me, since most upgrade to aftermarket seats (eg. Sparco).

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

..., and the passenger carpet is in perfect condition just not tucked in, just little things like that that. He said he would fix alot of those If was gonna buy it, but it still bothers me. He said he'd take my STI 2006 Subaru Impreza STI plus $3500 cash for it. I may be able to talk him down lower but we will see. He is asking 31k for his car and I am asking 21k for mine. The KBB for the supra completely stock is $25,700 and mine is $22,700. I feel like I could make money off of this car when I resell it...

Like every auto restoration I've been involved with, it'll very likely take a lot more $ and time than you think to get it into the condition you envision. It has to be a 'labor of love', so I'd recommend against it if you're only in it for the $. Also, you'll need a daily driver while working on the Mkiv, so I hope your Impreza isn't your only car.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...but It would definitely be from a car enthusiast. I paid 19k for my STI about 8 months ago so all I would have to resell the Supra for would be $22,500 and I would not have lost any money. Car is running conservative tunes for what the 2JZ engine is capable of...

That, and that 76mm turbo - which has me a bit suspicious.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...so I am not too worried of engine problems but there is always a chance....

You absolutely MUST have a compression test done on the engine...preferrably a leakdown test too. That way nothing is left up to chance, assuming you keep using an appropriate octane of race fuel when you boost. Oh, and I'd recommend against running it at 18psi on 93 octane (as it states in the ad) until you verify the ignition map and the knock sensor logs.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...What do you guys think, is it a good deal???? and what should I have checked out before I decide to buy it???....he said his roommate works at a car shop so we could go and have the whole car inspected before I buy it.

Thanks, John

Were maintenance records available?

It's still using the oem intake manifold, which is a no-no for a turbo that big.

The rear rims & tires are not wide enough to support 700+rwhp (even with Nitto 555 rubber). This car should be running 315s at a bare minimum. As-is, it'll probably just sit there and spin at the claimed 722rwhp (at 28psi & using c16).

Don't believe the claim of "900whp as it sits" unless you see a (reliable/verifiable) dyno printout.

Can he prove the nitrous system is functional? Why was it "never used"?

Which cams does it have (eg. 272s? 280s? etc.)?

With that fuel cell and external fuel pump, it's pretty much a track-only car (don't dream of taking this baby to work in rush hour traffic with those mods). Also, it'll be a gas guzzler with those 1600cc injectors.

Your modification/restoration goals for this car have to be crystal-clear. For example, do you want to convert it into something 'streetable' to maximize it's resalability? If so, at a minimum you'll need to replace the fuel tank and fuel pump system, fix the a/c problem, connect the speedometer, replace the dash and install a sound system. You'll also probably want to trim the fender lips and get wider rear rims & tires, upgrade the intake manifold, replace the seats, and possibly install some smaller fuel injectors with a slightly smaller turbo (eg. 71mm). After all that, you'll have a streetable and fun mkiv - which I hope you'll keep rather than resell!

[braaaaawp88]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Did you see the receipts... or any paperwork on the modifications?
Is the whole AC system ripped out, or is it just non-functional?
To me, this isn't a big deal, since you will probably upgrade to an aftermarket sound system if you regularly drive it.
The MKIV dash is a lot of labor to remove - be sure count that into your offer (of course, the cost of the dash itself is substantial as well!).
Another no-biggie to me, since most upgrade to aftermarket seats (eg. Sparco).
Like every auto restoration I've been involved with, it'll very likely take a lot more $ and time than you think to get it into the condition you envision. It has to be a 'labor of love', so I'd recommend against it if you're only in it for the $. Also, you'll need a daily driver while working on the Mkiv, so I hope your Impreza isn't your only car.
That, and that 76mm turbo - which has me a bit suspicious.
You absolutely MUST have a compression test done on the engine...preferrably a leakdown test too. That way nothing is left up to chance, assuming you keep using an appropriate octane of race fuel when you boost. Oh, and I'd recommend against running it at 18psi on 93 octane (as it states in the ad) until you verify the ignition map and the knock sensor logs.
Were maintenance records available?

It's still using the oem intake manifold, which is a no-no for a turbo that big.

The rear rims & tires are not wide enough to support 700+rwhp (even with Nitto 555 rubber). This car should be running 315s at a bare minimum. As-is, it'll probably just sit there and spin at the claimed 722rwhp (at 28psi & using c16).

Don't believe the claim of "900whp as it sits" unless you see a (reliable/verifiable) dyno printout.

Can he prove the nitrous system is functional? Why was it "never used"?

Which cams does it have (eg. 272s? 280s? etc.)?

With that fuel cell and external fuel pump, it's pretty much a track-only car (don't dream of taking this baby to work in rush hour traffic with those mods). Also, it'll be a gas guzzler with those 1600cc injectors.

Your modification/restoration goals for this car have to be crystal-clear. For example, do you want to convert it into something 'streetable' to maximize it's resalability? If so, at a minimum you'll need to replace the fuel tank and fuel pump system, fix the a/c problem, connect the speedometer, replace the dash and install a sound system. You'll also probably want to trim the fender lips and get wider rear rims & tires, upgrade the intake manifold, replace the seats, and possibly install some smaller fuel injectors with a slightly smaller turbo (eg. 71mm). After all that, you'll have a streetable and fun mkiv - which I hope you'll keep rather than resell!

Man thanks so much pwpanas, this was exactly what I was looking for.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Your modification/restoration goals for this car have to be crystal-clear. For example, do you want to convert it into something 'streetable' to maximize it's resalability? If so, at a minimum you'll need to replace the fuel tank and fuel pump system, fix the a/c problem, connect the speedometer, replace the dash and install a sound system. You'll also probably want to trim the fender lips and get wider rear rims & tires, upgrade the intake manifold, replace the seats, and possibly install some smaller fuel injectors with a slightly smaller turbo (eg. 71mm). After all that, you'll have a streetable and fun mkiv - which I hope you'll keep rather than resell!

My main goal with the MKIV would be to buy it but then put it right back up for sale for a lower price and hopefully make some $. I know the Supra would be a blast to drive and that I would enjoy every minute of it until it 's sold, but yes it would be my only car and I am not sure how practical it would be. So i guess you would say my main goal would be to maximize it's resalability, but be able to drive it daily for at the most 6 months.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Did you see the receipts... or any paperwork on the modifications?

All the parts were documented as far as whats on the car, but I guess you are saying to get some kind of proof that shows that the car was built and modded by redline performance?

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Is the whole AC system ripped out, or is it just non-functional?

Ripped out.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

The MKIV dash is a lot of labor to remove - be sure count that into your offer (of course, the cost of the dash itself is substantial as well!).

What about just patching the holes, the dash is in great condition besides that.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

That, and that 76mm turbo - which has me a bit suspicious.

What do you mean suspicious? Should I ask him to verify the claimed power?

Originally Posted by pwpanas

You absolutely MUST have a compression test done on the engine...preferrably a leakdown test too. That way nothing is left up to chance, assuming you keep using an appropriate octane of race fuel when you boost. Oh, and I'd recommend against running it at 18psi on 93 octane (as it states in the ad) until you verify the ignition map and the knock sensor logs.

Yes I was definitely gonna have a compression/leakdown test done now that I realize how important it is. How can I verify the ignition map and the knock sensor logs? I rode in the car with it on the 18psi setting and it seemed to run great. The only thing was that there was a little bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust on idle which he said was because he had to fill up from a station that had ethanol in the gas and the car didn't like that, and it was freezing outside.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

It's still using the oem intake manifold, which is a no-no for a turbo that big.

Okay this worries me, when you say no-no, are you implying that the car has not been modded correctly. If you could, could you please give me better detail about this?

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Can he prove the nitrous system is functional? Why was it "never used"?

Well he pointed out the button that activates it and the bottle in the trunk definitely looked hooked up, but as far as proofing it....I am unaware as to how he could do this without actually using it. He said it was "never" used because it was never needed. The car is such a monster that it is just unnecessary.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Which cams does it have (eg. 272s? 280s? etc.)?

No idea, I will definitely ask. I am curious as to what the significance of knowing this is though, just for my own personal knowledge.

Originally Posted by pwpanas

With that fuel cell and external fuel pump, it's pretty much a track-only car (don't dream of taking this baby to work in rush hour traffic with those mods). Also, it'll be a gas guzzler with those 1600cc injectors.

Well I probably only drive about 25miles a day. How unrealistic would it be for me to drive it daily until I resell it, no traffic or anything like that. I was very curious about this, when you say "gas guzzler," how bad do you really think it is? With the pro shift kit with the 3 gear no clutch setup, what do you think my gas mileage would be if I drove really conservative at about 65mph???



I really appreciate the help pwpanas, thanks again.

Sincerely, John

[braaaaawp88]

anybody have any other advice....does it sound like a good trade????

[Cyto]

I went and found the supra.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/1524680202.html

It's a beast.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...All the parts were documented as far as whats on the car, but I guess you are saying to get some kind of proof that shows that the car was built and modded by redline performance?...

Yep...preferrably with transaction details for each modification.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Ripped out...

Of course, that means more expense if you want to get it back into a condition where it would be marketable to anyone looking to daily-drive it.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...What about just patching the holes, the dash is in great condition besides that...

Could be tricky to patch holes big enough for a roll cage and get it looking oem-ish. Maybe mount tweeters for the replacement sound system in those holes?

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...What do you mean suspicious? Should I ask him to verify the claimed power?...

No...it's just that a 76mm turbo should be able to put down more power than 722rwhp, even through a built auto tranny. The claim of "900rwhp-capable" is more in-line with the 76mm turbo's capabilities, but it's strange that wasn't the advertised figure with dyno pull(s) to back it up. If all you want is 722rwhp through a built auto, you could go with a smaller turbo (eg. 74mm or maybe 71mm) and have less lag to deal with...especially if you get that nitrous kit functional. Also, a 71mm turbo would work better with that 3800rpm stall torque converter.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Yes I was definitely gonna have a compression/leakdown test done now that I realize how important it is. How can I verify the ignition map and the knock sensor logs?...

You'll need a PC with the AEM engine management software.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...I rode in the car with it on the 18psi setting and it seemed to run great. The only thing was that there was a little bit of smoke coming out of the exhaust on idle which he said was because he had to fill up from a station that had ethanol in the gas and the car didn't like that, and it was freezing outside...

It also could be worn cylinder walls...possibly due to being tuned overly-rich in certain parts of the fuel curve. It could also be a leaky turbine-side turbo oil seal. The leakdown test (or at the very least a compression test) will help tell you what's going on.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Okay this worries me, when you say no-no, are you implying that the car has not been modded correctly. If you could, could you please give me better detail about this?...

This could be a reason they've never run it above 722rwhp. Above that hp level, airflow through the oem plenum becomes unbalanced...which is why all big hp Mkiv's run aftermarket plenums like this one:
http://members.cox.net/virtualworksr...ntake/m1lg.htm

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Well he pointed out the button that activates it and the bottle in the trunk definitely looked hooked up, but as far as proofing it....I am unaware as to how he could do this without actually using it. He said it was "never" used because it was never needed. The car is such a monster that it is just unnecessary...

Then why not simply remove the nitrous kit and sell it separately? ...or better yet, why in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks not use it if for no other reason than to tune the AEM with the nitrous (and of course to make sure it actually works)?!! To me, a seller shouldn't advertise that a car has nitrous if it really doesn't have a functional nitrous system (and the tuning to go with it). If all it is a few random parts that happen to be glued/bolted/zip-tied to the vehicle, and then he says or implies that the car comes with a nitrous system, that's pretty-much false advertising to me. Imho, having the seller try to convince an unsuspecting buyer that it's somehow actually a really cool benefit that the nitrous kit was "never used" makes that false advertising even worse. Maybe the way I'm looking at this makes me overly-particular, anal-rententive, and OCD? Please let me know your thoughts here.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...No idea, I will definitely ask. I am curious as to what the significance of knowing this is though, just for my own personal knowledge...

The exact cams installed helps you tell what that Miiv Supra is capable of, as-is (i.e. is it really 900rwhp-capable? or is it really only 722rwhp-capable?) If it has 280s, that will make it even less 'streetable' (eg. rough/high idle, worse longevity due to stress on valvetrain), and more of a gas guzzler, etc. A new, more-streetable set of cams is about $500 plus installation&reshimming. On the other hand, if the cams are 264s, this could partially explain why they didn't try to make more than 722rwhp. I'm guessing all that all of this information is probably relevant to your puchasing decision, and not just nice-to-know.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...Well I probably only drive about 25miles a day. How unrealistic would it be for me to drive it daily until I resell it, no traffic or anything like that...

Since you asked the question (thereby opening this 'can of worms'), I'm going to be brutally honest with you here: As that Supra sits, it's primarily a dragstrip vehicle. You'll probably be able to carefully drive it to the strip and back in sunny, dry, warm weather, and you'll probably be able to put up with it while you cruise for 'kills' on the street if you're into that sort of thing, but it's no daily driver. That external electric fuel pump is probably pretty noisy (you should have already noticed this sound when you saw the car). Not only will fuel economy be bad due to those firehose-sized injectors, but that's compounded by only having a 10 gallon fuel cell. In addition, when fuel cells are installed in the Mkiv, the floorboards in the hatch area are usually 'gutted', which means the interior of the car is pretty much open and exposed to the elements (dust, dirt, gas fumes, exhaust, road noise, cold/hot outside temperatures, etc.). That external pump could overheat and burn out if you're stuck inching forward in rush-hour traffic (eg. behind an accident or other blockage on the road). That built TH400 will shift very harshly, which will spill the coffee you're sipping on the way to work, jerk while your girlfriend is touching up her lipstick, and may attract police attention perhaps at exactly the wrong time. Those nitto555 tires will perform horribly in the rain and in cold weather. That TH400 doesn't shift automatically, which makes it no worse than a 6spd (but nowhere near as convenient as a real auto). No a/c means if you keep it through late spring you could be sweating by the time you get to work. No spare tire., etc., etc. In summary, as a daily driver it'd be uncomfortable, inconvenient, and unsafe. Need I go on?
Note - I'm not bashing the car or the owner. It probably does fine on the dragstrip, so it may in fact do what it was built to do quite well. I'm just making sure everyone understands the intent of its modifications were clearly not to have this Mkiv Supra remain a comfortable daily driver (like it was when it was bone-stock); this is so you know exactly what you'd be buying.

Originally Posted by braaaaawp88

...I was very curious about this, when you say "gas guzzler," how bad do you really think it is? With the pro shift kit with the 3 gear no clutch setup, what do you think my gas mileage would be if I drove really conservative at about 65mph???...

Could be as bad as 10mpg or even worse (which means with that 10g fuel cell, you only get a 50 mile driving range one-way if you want to get back without another fill-up)... Keep in mind that 10mpg is just a guess - there are a lot of factors including the base fuel pressure and how well the AEM has been tuned for 'normal' (i.e. non-dragstrip) driving conditions.

P.S. Don't forget that race fuel is usually $10+/gal...which you will need whenever you want 500 rwhp+. At only 10mpg, that $100+ fill-up won't last long while cruising.

[cre]

I agree with pwpanas... For a daily I wouldn't be remotely interested.... well, I'd be interested, but I also know better.

I personally would have it dyno'd at my own shop and not on a Dynojet... they're commonly known for providing artificially high numbers due to their "propriety and patented correction formulae...". I'd pay the cash to have is dyno'd myself as people lie and cheat and cut corners and sometimes simply don't know what they're really seeing. There's more to a dyno graph than the peak HP and TQ... a LOT more.

Unverifiable mods don't count as value adders to me.

Returning a car to stock for whether it be a built car or a piece of crap can be equally costly and downright expensive. I'd forget this right now, it'd be cheaper to finish the build which it seems *someone* (don't really know who) had planned and then sell it to someone looking for precisely what it was intended to be.

There are any number of possible reasons for the unimplemented and incomplete mods... I don't care to speculate, but often it's due to: poor planning, unfinished, too many people working on it and not one with the same vision, underlying problems which have not yet been disclosed, and so on.

Smoke from adding fuel with Ethanol in it??? Never heard that one before... I though the Ethanol was added to REDUCE hydrocarbon emissions... sounds more like poor tuning or an oil leak. But I'm admittedly no expert on fuel.

If you need a daily to replace the trade car then you better ask the seller to come down another $1K and buy a crap Honda too.

[braaaaawp88]

Yea I agree with you guys, thanks so much for the input. At one point I was truly considering getting it but now I know there is no way. It is just too much of a risk and not a practical daily driver.

Thanks again guys.

[cre]

I'm not making any statement one way or the other about it being a risk or not... that's easy enough to test for and find out with a reasonable enough degree of accuracy to base a decision.

It's the daily driver thing....