2JZGE to 2JZGTE Swap Questions

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

I can't begin to tell you how wrong I belive that your whole attitude is about this. They want your money and they can't even tell you what kind of clutch is in it. I can tell you 100% for sure I wouldn't send them a dime for that car unless I knew. For all you know - really! - it's just the oem clutch (or worse) and they're claiming it's a "racing clutch". How can you have so much blind faith in ... of all things ... a used car dealer???? I'm not going to call you gullible, since otherwise you come across as a very smart guy... Sorry to be blunt, but I can't help coming to that overall observation about your approach. Please consider being a bit more critical about them before you send them any of your hard-earned dollars...and repeat after me: there is no such thing as a "racing" clutch, or "racing" brake pads. These are just overly-general terms invented by a used car salesman that's either too lazy to find out what product was really used, or too slick to tell you the truth about what's really on there.
Let's agree to disagree about this. With the oem n/a suspension, the oem n/a transmission, and the oem n/a brake calipers (yes I know model years, Japanese-spec, etc., etc., but to me they're still n/a brakes), oem n/a differential, and the oem n/a ABS system, to me it's an na-T at best. Call me wrong if you like, and disagree if you like, but you're not going to change my mind about this. Let's let the other readers of this forum decide for themselves.
If you think the oem TT (US-spec) brakes are cool, you should feel some real upgraded brakes like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. Oh, and brake ducts should be added too if it's going to be roadraced.
The HKS EVC 5 (actually the current model is 6) is a very good boost controller - I've got no concerns about it at all, as long as it's properly installed and properly calibrated. However, I prefer the HKS EVC EZ 2 (or the just-released HKS EVC-S) for its simplicity and lower price.

Thanks for the compliment

How can I just believe them you ask? Fair question. Best answer I can give you is this - as you know, I live in SA. I will buy a Supra from Japan. At the moment, it's uneconomical for me to fly over there and look at the cars personally - the money for that whole trip will go into the car itself after all. I'd love to do that though. Due to this reality, taking the dealers' word for it is all I have to go on. I'm an optimistic person. I know you're pushing me to remain realistic about the info I receive and I won't reject that advice however, judging by the conversations I have with the dealer, their urgent responses and willingness to answer all my questions about the cars, and the huge discount they're willing to give me since my budget is tight, it shows sincerity on their part. Yes, they are a dealer, they want to sell a car to me - either Supra 1 or Supra 2, either way, they will make their money and I have no guarantee whatsoever that what they say is true. BUT, they have sent me numerous pictures of each car allowing me to see it's condition for myself and that it has A, B, C upgrades installed - more importantly than that, a clear picture of the '93 RZ's odometer was taken showing me the exact mileage of the engine. Once the car is prepped for shipping, they will send a video to me (a video from port). I will try to be more critical though. If anything, I'm the type of guy who will ask 100's of questions about something before I buy it after all.

There is after sales service as well - if I find something wrong with the car or any parts they installed upon arrival at port, I can send it back to them as a whole or, they will give me replacement parts free of charge.

You know the saying - "half-a-loaf is better than none..."

I hear you about racing clutch/pads. I'm gonna ask them about the brand next time. Depending on the previous owner's driving skill, do you realise that the OEM clutch or "racing" one will feel quite good (new) since it's very low mileage?

We can agree to disagree about your take on the '95 being an N/A-T since I know how you feel about N/A. I must say that I disagree with your feelings about an N/A MKIV Supra but, they're yours. I don't have to say it again but I will, TT Supra is far superior than N/A - all enthusiasts know this fact well. That being said, the '95 isn't an SZ or N/A anymore now, is it...

Questions:
Can you agree that the engine it has is from an RZ/S Twin Turbo Supra - 2JZ-GTE and the engine type is the main thing when discussing N/A or Turbo?
You also know that it has very high level aftermarket suspension, fuel pump, upgraded pads, TCS installed and 1.5 way LSD - all of which make up for the N/A's shortcomings or at least make up for them to some degree?
The previous owner clearly wanted to transform his SZ into an RZ and aimed his choice of upgrades at the OEM's level or a level above in some cases (he just left out the tranny why)
In other words, do you agree that, a 2JZ-GTE wasn't just dropped into an SZ and left as is?

Second major component after the car's heart is the tranny - this we know has been retained from the SZ since it's 5MT. This is what's throwing me the most right now

Which is more affordable from the 3 braking brands you listed?

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...judging by the conversations I have with the dealer, their urgent responses and willingness to answer all my questions about the cars,...they have sent me numerous pictures of each car allowing me to see it's condition for myself and that it has A, B, C upgrades installed...

Then ask for a picture of this so-called "racing clutch". They'll have to put it up on a lift (or jackstands), and remove the dust covers in the bellhousing to do so.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...more importantly than that, a clear picture of the '93 RZ's odometer was taken showing me the exact mileage of the engine....

Disagree. The engine could have been swapped, as the odo panel also could have been.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Depending on the previous owner's driving skill, do you realise that the OEM clutch or "racing" one will feel quite good (new) since it's very low mileage?...

I bought my Mkiv Supra Turbo brand-new from Toyota. Do you really need to ask that question? What I'm saying is the seller should call it a "racing clutch" if in fact it is a non-upgraded oem clutch. If the seller does that, to me it falls under the crime of false advertising.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Can you agree that the engine it has is from an RZ/S Twin Turbo Supra - 2JZ-GTE and the engine type is the main thing when discussing N/A or Turbo?...

Yes to your first question (it has a 2JZ-GTE), and NO to your second one. The main thing when discussing NA or Turbo is the whole package. An n/a with a 2jz-gte does NOT perform OR have the upgrade potential of the TT. Period. The thing that makes the Mkiv Supra Turbo so special - the one thing that truly distinguishes it from all other GT sportscars of the '90s - is how insanely overbuilt it is. It's almost unbelievable that Toyota would have shipped a car (the Toyota Supra Turbo) advertised at 320hp with the following characteristics, but they did(!):
- 6spd transmission and differential capable of well beyond 1500rwhp
- Differential capable of well beyond 1500hp
- Shortblock capable of 1000hp.
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid reliable 450rwhp with just a few simple modifications
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid 750rwhp with a turbo+fuel swap and a simple 'piggyback' fuel controller
- etc.
All of these characteristics are in the Mkiv Supra Turbo, and not in the Mkiv Supra N/A. So honestly, the "main thing" when discussing Turbo vs. NA is the whole package, and not just the engine.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...You also know that it has very high level aftermarket suspension, fuel pump, upgraded pads, TCS installed and 1.5 way LSD - all of which make up for the N/A's shortcomings or at least make up for them to some degree?...

No. First of all, these "upgraded pads" are just heresay - to me, the braking system has not been upgraded at all. Secondly, most people consider the transmission and differential to be pretty important parts of any vehicle...both of which are MUCH less capable in the n/a version.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...The previous owner clearly wanted to transform his SZ into an RZ and aimed his choice of upgrades at the OEM's level or a level above in some cases (he just left out the tranny why)...

Disagree. To me, the previous owner clearly realized he had made a mistake by buying an n/a and took a few steps to attempt to rectify that mistake by upgrading the engine and the suspension. He probably then realized how much more it would cost to bring the rest of that n/a Mkiv up to full TT specs, so he decided to abandon the project. In hindsight, the right thing for him to do would have been to sell the n/a and buy a TT instead...and then put the upgraded suspension on that much more capable base platform.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...In other words, do you agree that, a 2JZ-GTE wasn't just dropped into an SZ and left as is?...

As you agreed above, this was a project abandoned part-way through.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Which is more affordable from the 3 braking brands you listed?

None of them are really that affordable, honestly. We're talking thousands of $US to do the upgrade. Unless you're roadracing beyond the capabilities of the Mkiv Supra TT US-spec calipers, and you've already installed true "racing pads" (eg. Carbotech™ XP8™) and brake ducts, the cost would not be justified.

Again, we must agree to disagree on the topic of whether or not one should consider that particular n/a-T that is for sale a "full RZ/TT". It's wasting bandwidth in this forum, so please don't post on this one point anymore okay?
If you'd like, we can continue this debate privately.

[warmkop]

If i may ask wat are they asking for the supras.
I replaced my oem pads that was worn out with ebc red stuff pads and the oem pads was much better then the ebc pads.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by warmkop

If i may ask wat are they asking for the supras.
I replaced my oem pads that was worn out with ebc red stuff pads and the oem pads was much better then the ebc pads.

Same price for both.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Two great Supras are before me, I need to make a careful choice on one of them. I know I want the '93 RZ 6MT but, can't turn a blind eye to the '95 SZ-R 5MT because of the (more) very, very expensive aftermarket parts that it comes with. The '93 is perfect, no issues whatsoever there - original Supra RZ 6MT with great aftermarket parts and in beautiful, near brand new condition. I can already see myself with the '93 but, just need to get my head around the '95 and what it offers.

Thanks for all your feedback so far. I will keep you posted about my final choice and yes, I will set up a thread for you and I to discuss the future plans for my Supra

P.S. thanks for the brake info...

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

Two great Supras are before me, I need to make a careful choice on one of them. I know I want the '93 RZ 6MT but, can't turn a blind eye to the '95 SZ-R 5MT because of the (more) very, very expensive aftermarket parts that it comes with. The '93 is perfect, no issues whatsoever there - original Supra RZ 6MT with great aftermarket parts and in beautiful, near brand new condition. I can already see myself with the '93 but, just need to get my head around the '95 and what it offers.

Thanks for all your feedback so far. I will keep you posted about my final choice and yes, I will set up a thread for you and I to discuss the future plans for my Supra

P.S. thanks for the brake info...

You're very welcome, and good luck with your choice.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by warmkop

...I replaced my oem pads that was worn out with ebc red stuff pads and the oem pads was much better then the ebc pads.

warmkop, thanks for that info! To me, that's more evidence that a pad that might be considered to be an unnamed "racing pad" by a seller might actually be a downgrade.

If you're looking for a pad that's a great track compound that will do okay on the street* it's Carbotech™ XP8™ - this compound will take some time to heat up to optimal working temperature on the street, so be careful. After it heats up, it's MUCH better than the oem pads (even a moderate brake pedal pressure will throw your molars into the windshield if you're not careful. I'm exaggerating, but not by much at all - the difference will shock you.).

If you're only going to be driving on the street*, the Carbotech™ 1521™ compound will be better suited because it gets up to optimal grip temperature more quickly. This compound still has a noticeable edge over the oem pad material, but the difference isn't as great as XP8s. Another option for the street that is a slight but noticeable upgrade from the oem pads is Hawk HPS compound.

* Disclaimer: Of course, this assumes you're starting out with the Mkiv TT 4-piston front calipers, and the Mkiv TT ABS system. If you're running the n/a front calipers and/or the n/a ABS system, you should stay away from all forms of roadracing, imho (regardless of pad).

[[SupraLEGEND]]

I'm watching you Phil Good to know about the EBC pads. I'll be posting a full review on the Supra I buy after I buy it. It's going to rock my world non-stop as is. Before I even think of upgrading anything in the Supra, I must get to know it well and harness it's power. After all that, then only can I look at anything more in the braking department or any other section of the car.

Right??

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

warmkop, thanks for that info! To me, that's more evidence that a pad that might be considered to be an unnamed "racing pad" by a seller might actually be a downgrade.

If you're looking for a pad that's a great track compound that will do okay on the street* it's Carbotech™ XP8™ - this compound will take some time to heat up to optimal working temperature on the street, so be careful. After it heats up, it's MUCH better than the oem pads (even a moderate brake pedal pressure will throw your molars into the windshield if you're not careful. I'm exaggerating, but not by much at all - the difference will shock you.).

If you're only going to be driving on the street*, the Carbotech™ 1521™ compound will be better suited because it gets up to optimal grip temperature more quickly. This compound still has a noticeable edge over the oem pad material, but the difference isn't as great as XP8s. Another option for the street that is a slight but noticeable upgrade from the oem pads is Hawk HPS compound.

* Disclaimer: Of course, this assumes you're starting out with the Mkiv TT 4-piston front calipers, and the Mkiv TT ABS system. If you're running the n/a front calipers and/or the n/a ABS system, you should stay away from all forms of roadracing, imho (regardless of pad).

Good news - I found out what clutch and pads the '95 Twin Turbo Supra is running. OS Giken Clutch and Endless pads. I know those brands are very good.

Here's the link to OS Giken's website: http://www.osgiken.net/products/supersingle.html

Quote: All OS Giken clutches include a corresponding performance flywheel to ensure maximum performance and unlock your vehicle’s potential.
This means that Supra's flywheel has also been changed from OEM to a Giken.

Link to Endless' website: http://www.endless-brake.info/street-track-pads

Thoughts?

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

Good news - I found out what clutch and pads the '95 Twin Turbo Supra is running. OS Giken Clutch and Endless pads. I know those brands are very good.

Here's the link to OS Giken's website: http://www.osgiken.net/products/supersingle.html

Quote: All OS Giken clutches include a corresponding performance flywheel to ensure maximum performance and unlock your vehicle’s potential.
This means that Supra's flywheel has also been changed from OEM to a Giken.

Link to Endless' website: http://www.endless-brake.info/street-track-pads

Thoughts?

The OS Gikken clutch isn't bad, but it doesn't stand up to HARD driving that well. I have a friend that had the twin disc version in his Supra, and he had to get the springs in the sprung-hub sections replaced several times. Again, it's an okay clutch, but not anywhere near a top-of-the-line clutch for the Mkiv Supra Turbo 6spd like this one:
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/tiltripcarcl.html


By the way, do you even know if it's a twin, triple or quad-disc Gikken? Here is the list of possible OS Gikken part numbers for the Mkiv Turbo:

• TS2CD
• TR2CD
• TS3B
• TS3BW
• R3C
• R4C

Regarding the Endless pads, which compound are they? We still don't have enough information about them. Here are the choices for Endless compounds:

• LF1
• LF2
• LF3
• MX72
• CC-R
• SSM
• SSY
• NS97
• ME20
• N03W
• N35S
• N40S
• N45S
• S89F
• S90F
• S91F
• S93F
• MA45B
• ES88G

Some of these pads might be absolutely horrible, like the EBC pads that warmkop used. At least find out specifically which pad it is, and then after that we can discuss how well they fit your application.