2JZGE to 2JZGTE Swap Questions

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

Yes.Thank you! Absolutely, but I'll let you decide. For starters, take a look at the price:
http://www.ohlinsusa.com/us/index.ph...road-and-track
Agree. I'm not saying it's bad to have too much suspension (except perhaps in the area of maintenace costs). However, I am saying the upgrades on that car are a bit unbalanced...too much suspension and not enough brakes. It's just an overall comment about the choices made for the specific combination of modifications. Like perhaps a project abandoned partway through? From the perspective of a project car or a starting point it's just fine. From the perspective of someone that wants to take the car out and seriously roadrace day 1, perhaps it's not optimal. *shrug*
The oem rotors are in fact better than aftermarket slotted and/or cross-drilled for pure braking power. However, there's no way to upgrade the rotor diameter without also changing the calipers. That's the level of brake upgrade that should have been done to match that suspension, imho.There are a very few areas where the Toyota let us down with the oem components, but the oem BOV is one of them. Inside it is just cheap plastic, and with the heat generated in the 2jz-gte engine bay the oem bov has a limited life span before it starts leaking. Pretty much any/every BOV will perform better than stock, especially in the reliability area. Of course, if you upgrade to a large single turbo, you'll also need larger size of BOV(s) to vent a greater volume of air during a blow-off.
If you're running the oem MAF, be sure to get a BOV that has an output routed back to the post-maf intake tube (as it is in the oem configuration). If you vent the BOV to atmosphere (again, with a MAF), you'll run overly-rich every time the BOV vents, which can stall the car and/or foul the plugs and/or wash down the cylinder walls.I do wish you the best of luck in obtaining a Supra. Please keep us informed on your journey!

Thanks for the vote of confidence and all the answers Phil. Oh, and my pleasure (complimenting your car)

I kinda agree with you on the point about the '95 Supra with OHLINS being abandoned half way through the project. I got the feeling that the previous owner was prepping it for a big single turbo...with the Sard racing fuel pump, HKS F-Con IS and Trust oil cooler, he may very well have been?
Are the stock rotors unsuitable for OHLINS?? OHLINS is damn expensive!!!

About the BOV, it looks quite solid (stainless finish) so, it should last a long time huh? It's quite small compared to an HKS SSQV or GReddy Type RZ
so, you reckon the sound will be easily audible or not?

The dealer told me how the '93 RZ felt and is about to tell me how the '95 feels after he drives it. Good news, the superb '93 RZ 6MT has a full HKS exhaust with front/down pipe

This is what the dealer told me after I asked them a few more questions about the APU+ Supra:

It's around 400HP so, the racing clutch allows the 5MT to handle that power well. If I want to modify it more like, go big single, I should install 6MT. They don't think that the ABS system has been upgraded however, most people who modify like to cancel ABS to get a more direct braking feel (this doesn't tell us that it's been cancelled rather, what a certain tuning practice may be). He does think that the ABS will be quite good with this power though, no problem.
He's confident that the racing pads make a favourable difference to the stock rotors braking performance. Engine, ECU, ignition coil, wiring harness is all RZ grade - complete set, no problem there.

What do you reckon?

P.S. more tuning questions: if you install a TRD 320km/h and 10 000rpm tacho, do you need to calibrate them or are they just plug and play (will both read correct speeds by default)? Is the HKS F-Con IS a stand alone unit that replaces the stock ECU altogether or does it work in conjunction with it?

Thanks Phil

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Are the stock rotors unsuitable for OHLINS??...

No, the braking system and the suspension system are independent of each other. Assuming a proper alighment and corner-weighting, you'd be able to corner like mad, but not stop very well. If you're okay with that imbalanced design for roadracing, then go for it. To me, it speaks to either bad planning for the upgrades, or a project partially finished. *shrug*

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...so, you reckon the sound will be easily audible or not?...

To me, performance is always the trump card...not looks or cool sounds. The oem bov routes the charge-air from the BOV output back into the intake system, and the Toyota engineers designed it this way for a reason. To me, you don't mess with something that works unless there's a really good reason (and warbling blow-off valve sounds to impress your friends isn't one). Just mho.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...It's around 400HP so, the racing clutch...

Yeah, there's another one I didn't mention earlier. No such thing as a "racing clutch". It's also too general of a term. An upgraded clutch also has specific a brand and a specific model.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...people who modify like to cancel ABS to get a more direct braking feel...

They're complete idiots, imho. Among other things, ABS is much safer in wet conditions, and it keeps you from flat-spotting your tires in dry conditions. The only justified ABS removal is if you choose to b@st@rdize your Supra and turn it into a trailered, drag-strip-only vehicle. Driving it only 1/4 mile at a time, with a parachute to slow you down at the end, the weight savings in removing the ABS is warranted. Other than that, keep it on. For n/a-T applications, get the TT ABS on there if at all possible, since it's much more capable than the n/a ABS: Eg. The TT ABS puts more braking power on the front left tire if turning right.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

.... He does think that the ABS will be quite good with this power though, no problem....

Of course he says that - he's trying to sell the car lol. Again, just mho. *shrug*

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...
He's confident that the racing pads make a favourable difference to the stock rotors braking performance....

Again, no such thing. Oh, and he's very likely wrong as well...since the oem pads are so aggressive it's tough to beat them for a street/strip application. It's a joke and (to me) false advertising to imply that n/a brakes with "racing pads" are anywhere as effective as full TT 4-piston calipers and rotors.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...What do you reckon?...

I still say get the oem TT and not the na-T.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...if you install a TRD 320km/h and 10 000rpm tacho, do you need to calibrate them or are they just plug and play (will both read correct speeds by default)?...

They're completely plug and play. However, neither are made anymore, so you'll have a tough time finding them.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Is the HKS F-Con IS a stand alone unit that replaces the stock ECU altogether or does it work in conjunction with it?...

It's a standalone.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

No, the braking system and the suspension system are independent of each other. Assuming a proper alighment and corner-weighting, you'd be able to corner like mad, but not stop very well. If you're okay with that imbalanced design for roadracing, then go for it. To me, it speaks to either bad planning for the upgrades, or a project partially finished. *shrug*To me, performance is always the trump card...not looks or cool sounds. The oem bov routes the charge-air from the BOV output back into the intake system, and the Toyota engineers designed it this way for a reason. To me, you don't mess with something that works unless there's a really good reason (and warbling blow-off valve sounds to impress your friends isn't one). Just mho.Yeah, there's another one I didn't mention earlier. No such thing as a "racing clutch". It's also too general of a term. An upgraded clutch also has specific a brand and a specific model.They're complete idiots, imho. Among other things, ABS is much safer in wet conditions, and it keeps you from flat-spotting your tires in dry conditions. The only justified ABS removal is if you choose to b@st@rdize your Supra and turn it into a trailered, drag-strip-only vehicle. Driving it only 1/4 mile at a time, with a parachute to slow you down at the end, the weight savings in removing the ABS is warranted. Other than that, keep it on. For n/a-T applications, get the TT ABS on there if at all possible, since it's much more capable than the n/a ABS: Eg. The TT ABS puts more braking power on the front left tire if turning right.Of course he says that - he's trying to sell the car lol. Again, just mho. *shrug*Again, no such thing. Oh, and he's very likely wrong as well...since the oem pads are so aggressive it's tough to beat them for a street/strip application. It's a joke and (to me) false advertising to imply that n/a brakes with "racing pads" are anywhere as effective as full TT 4-piston calipers and rotors.I still say get the oem TT and not the na-T.They're completely plug and play. However, neither are made anymore, so you'll have a tough time finding them.It's a standalone.

Disagree dude, BOV whooshing is what you NEED Especially for Supra with it's superb huge turbocharged "6 barrel shooter", that sound just works! Your friends and everyone else will be impressed just by looking at it then, when they hear it, they'd be blown away. The OEM BOV is audible but, it's quite soft. Agreed, if it works well then, no need to change but, you said so yourself that ANY BOV is better than the OEM one.

For all intents and purposes, "racing clutch" = upgraded clutch. Brand is unknown for now but, it's JDM, obviously it's superb quality. I guess it's a lightweight single plate type, possibly carbon.

BTW, I know what you mean but, the '95 is not an N/A-T, it's a full on Twin Turbo i.e. 2JZ-GTE. If it were a turbocharged GE then, yes, you can call it N/A-T. Inherent differences exist between it and the actual RZ 6MT as discussed.

Yes brakes and suspension are independent of each other. Remember what I said about JDM spec Supras pre '96? They share the same brakes - TT and N/A but, the ABS system is different (independent 4 wheel braking for Turbo - such awesome technology). Actually, need to confirm that just to make sure whether it's just for JDM TT. Yeah, RZ was tested to accelerate and stop the fastest in a super car showdown by some magazine in the mid '90's so, I can only imagine what the brakes' bite feels like

Sigh dude, decisions decisions - I'm inclined to the RZ 6MT by default but, can't turn a blind eye to the RZ-S 5MT yet. I'm waiting to see which one I'm allowed to import - should make the decision easier (or harder, lol) I must have Supra RZ 6MT, NOW!!!!

Thanks for info on TRD gauges - yes, dealer confirmed that they're hard to come by now

So, what do you think of HKS EVC 5??

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...For all intents and purposes, "racing clutch" = upgraded clutch. Brand is unknown for now but, it's JDM, obviously it's superb quality. I guess it's a lightweight single plate type, possibly carbon...

I can't begin to tell you how wrong I belive that your whole attitude is about this. They want your money and they can't even tell you what kind of clutch is in it. I can tell you 100% for sure I wouldn't send them a dime for that car unless I knew. For all you know - really! - it's just the oem clutch (or worse) and they're claiming it's a "racing clutch". How can you have so much blind faith in ... of all things ... a used car dealer???? I'm not going to call you gullible, since otherwise you come across as a very smart guy... Sorry to be blunt, but I can't help coming to that overall observation about your approach. Please consider being a bit more critical about them before you send them any of your hard-earned dollars...and repeat after me: there is no such thing as a "racing" clutch, or "racing" brake pads. These are just overly-general terms invented by a used car salesman that's either too lazy to find out what product was really used, or too slick to tell you the truth about what's really on there.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...BTW, I know what you mean but, the '95 is not an N/A-T, it's a full on Twin Turbo i.e. 2JZ-GTE. If it were a turbocharged GE then, yes, you can call it N/A-T. Inherent differences exist between it and the actual RZ 6MT as discussed....

Let's agree to disagree about this. With the oem n/a suspension, the oem n/a transmission, and the oem n/a brake calipers (yes I know model years, Japanese-spec, etc., etc., but to me they're still n/a brakes), oem n/a differential, and the oem n/a ABS system, to me it's an na-T at best. Call me wrong if you like, and disagree if you like, but you're not going to change my mind about this. Let's let the other readers of this forum decide for themselves.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Yes brakes and suspension are independent of each other. Remember what I said about JDM spec Supras pre '96? They share the same brakes - TT and N/A but, the ABS system is different (independent 4 wheel braking for Turbo - such awesome technology). Actually, need to confirm that just to make sure whether it's just for JDM TT. Yeah, RZ was tested to accelerate and stop the fastest in a super car showdown by some magazine in the mid '90's so, I can only imagine what the brakes' bite feels like ...

If you think the oem TT (US-spec) brakes are cool, you should feel some real upgraded brakes like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. Oh, and brake ducts should be added too if it's going to be roadraced.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...So, what do you think of HKS EVC 5??

The HKS EVC 5 (actually the current model is 6) is a very good boost controller - I've got no concerns about it at all, as long as it's properly installed and properly calibrated. However, I prefer the HKS EVC EZ 2 (or the just-released HKS EVC-S) for its simplicity and lower price.

[[SupraLEGEND]]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

I can't begin to tell you how wrong I belive that your whole attitude is about this. They want your money and they can't even tell you what kind of clutch is in it. I can tell you 100% for sure I wouldn't send them a dime for that car unless I knew. For all you know - really! - it's just the oem clutch (or worse) and they're claiming it's a "racing clutch". How can you have so much blind faith in ... of all things ... a used car dealer???? I'm not going to call you gullible, since otherwise you come across as a very smart guy... Sorry to be blunt, but I can't help coming to that overall observation about your approach. Please consider being a bit more critical about them before you send them any of your hard-earned dollars...and repeat after me: there is no such thing as a "racing" clutch, or "racing" brake pads. These are just overly-general terms invented by a used car salesman that's either too lazy to find out what product was really used, or too slick to tell you the truth about what's really on there.
Let's agree to disagree about this. With the oem n/a suspension, the oem n/a transmission, and the oem n/a brake calipers (yes I know model years, Japanese-spec, etc., etc., but to me they're still n/a brakes), oem n/a differential, and the oem n/a ABS system, to me it's an na-T at best. Call me wrong if you like, and disagree if you like, but you're not going to change my mind about this. Let's let the other readers of this forum decide for themselves.
If you think the oem TT (US-spec) brakes are cool, you should feel some real upgraded brakes like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. Oh, and brake ducts should be added too if it's going to be roadraced.
The HKS EVC 5 (actually the current model is 6) is a very good boost controller - I've got no concerns about it at all, as long as it's properly installed and properly calibrated. However, I prefer the HKS EVC EZ 2 (or the just-released HKS EVC-S) for its simplicity and lower price.

Thanks for the compliment

How can I just believe them you ask? Fair question. Best answer I can give you is this - as you know, I live in SA. I will buy a Supra from Japan. At the moment, it's uneconomical for me to fly over there and look at the cars personally - the money for that whole trip will go into the car itself after all. I'd love to do that though. Due to this reality, taking the dealers' word for it is all I have to go on. I'm an optimistic person. I know you're pushing me to remain realistic about the info I receive and I won't reject that advice however, judging by the conversations I have with the dealer, their urgent responses and willingness to answer all my questions about the cars, and the huge discount they're willing to give me since my budget is tight, it shows sincerity on their part. Yes, they are a dealer, they want to sell a car to me - either Supra 1 or Supra 2, either way, they will make their money and I have no guarantee whatsoever that what they say is true. BUT, they have sent me numerous pictures of each car allowing me to see it's condition for myself and that it has A, B, C upgrades installed - more importantly than that, a clear picture of the '93 RZ's odometer was taken showing me the exact mileage of the engine. Once the car is prepped for shipping, they will send a video to me (a video from port). I will try to be more critical though. If anything, I'm the type of guy who will ask 100's of questions about something before I buy it after all.

There is after sales service as well - if I find something wrong with the car or any parts they installed upon arrival at port, I can send it back to them as a whole or, they will give me replacement parts free of charge.

You know the saying - "half-a-loaf is better than none..."

I hear you about racing clutch/pads. I'm gonna ask them about the brand next time. Depending on the previous owner's driving skill, do you realise that the OEM clutch or "racing" one will feel quite good (new) since it's very low mileage?

We can agree to disagree about your take on the '95 being an N/A-T since I know how you feel about N/A. I must say that I disagree with your feelings about an N/A MKIV Supra but, they're yours. I don't have to say it again but I will, TT Supra is far superior than N/A - all enthusiasts know this fact well. That being said, the '95 isn't an SZ or N/A anymore now, is it...

Questions:
Can you agree that the engine it has is from an RZ/S Twin Turbo Supra - 2JZ-GTE and the engine type is the main thing when discussing N/A or Turbo?
You also know that it has very high level aftermarket suspension, fuel pump, upgraded pads, TCS installed and 1.5 way LSD - all of which make up for the N/A's shortcomings or at least make up for them to some degree?
The previous owner clearly wanted to transform his SZ into an RZ and aimed his choice of upgrades at the OEM's level or a level above in some cases (he just left out the tranny why)
In other words, do you agree that, a 2JZ-GTE wasn't just dropped into an SZ and left as is?

Second major component after the car's heart is the tranny - this we know has been retained from the SZ since it's 5MT. This is what's throwing me the most right now

Which is more affordable from the 3 braking brands you listed?

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...judging by the conversations I have with the dealer, their urgent responses and willingness to answer all my questions about the cars,...they have sent me numerous pictures of each car allowing me to see it's condition for myself and that it has A, B, C upgrades installed...

Then ask for a picture of this so-called "racing clutch". They'll have to put it up on a lift (or jackstands), and remove the dust covers in the bellhousing to do so.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...more importantly than that, a clear picture of the '93 RZ's odometer was taken showing me the exact mileage of the engine....

Disagree. The engine could have been swapped, as the odo panel also could have been.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Depending on the previous owner's driving skill, do you realise that the OEM clutch or "racing" one will feel quite good (new) since it's very low mileage?...

I bought my Mkiv Supra Turbo brand-new from Toyota. Do you really need to ask that question? What I'm saying is the seller should call it a "racing clutch" if in fact it is a non-upgraded oem clutch. If the seller does that, to me it falls under the crime of false advertising.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Can you agree that the engine it has is from an RZ/S Twin Turbo Supra - 2JZ-GTE and the engine type is the main thing when discussing N/A or Turbo?...

Yes to your first question (it has a 2JZ-GTE), and NO to your second one. The main thing when discussing NA or Turbo is the whole package. An n/a with a 2jz-gte does NOT perform OR have the upgrade potential of the TT. Period. The thing that makes the Mkiv Supra Turbo so special - the one thing that truly distinguishes it from all other GT sportscars of the '90s - is how insanely overbuilt it is. It's almost unbelievable that Toyota would have shipped a car (the Toyota Supra Turbo) advertised at 320hp with the following characteristics, but they did(!):
- 6spd transmission and differential capable of well beyond 1500rwhp
- Differential capable of well beyond 1500hp
- Shortblock capable of 1000hp.
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid reliable 450rwhp with just a few simple modifications
- Entire Mkiv Supra Turbo is capable of a rock-solid 750rwhp with a turbo+fuel swap and a simple 'piggyback' fuel controller
- etc.
All of these characteristics are in the Mkiv Supra Turbo, and not in the Mkiv Supra N/A. So honestly, the "main thing" when discussing Turbo vs. NA is the whole package, and not just the engine.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...You also know that it has very high level aftermarket suspension, fuel pump, upgraded pads, TCS installed and 1.5 way LSD - all of which make up for the N/A's shortcomings or at least make up for them to some degree?...

No. First of all, these "upgraded pads" are just heresay - to me, the braking system has not been upgraded at all. Secondly, most people consider the transmission and differential to be pretty important parts of any vehicle...both of which are MUCH less capable in the n/a version.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...The previous owner clearly wanted to transform his SZ into an RZ and aimed his choice of upgrades at the OEM's level or a level above in some cases (he just left out the tranny why)...

Disagree. To me, the previous owner clearly realized he had made a mistake by buying an n/a and took a few steps to attempt to rectify that mistake by upgrading the engine and the suspension. He probably then realized how much more it would cost to bring the rest of that n/a Mkiv up to full TT specs, so he decided to abandon the project. In hindsight, the right thing for him to do would have been to sell the n/a and buy a TT instead...and then put the upgraded suspension on that much more capable base platform.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...In other words, do you agree that, a 2JZ-GTE wasn't just dropped into an SZ and left as is?...

As you agreed above, this was a project abandoned part-way through.

Originally Posted by [SupraLEGEND]

...Which is more affordable from the 3 braking brands you listed?

None of them are really that affordable, honestly. We're talking thousands of $US to do the upgrade. Unless you're roadracing beyond the capabilities of the Mkiv Supra TT US-spec calipers, and you've already installed true "racing pads" (eg. Carbotech™ XP8™) and brake ducts, the cost would not be justified.

Again, we must agree to disagree on the topic of whether or not one should consider that particular n/a-T that is for sale a "full RZ/TT". It's wasting bandwidth in this forum, so please don't post on this one point anymore okay?
If you'd like, we can continue this debate privately.

[warmkop]

If i may ask wat are they asking for the supras.
I replaced my oem pads that was worn out with ebc red stuff pads and the oem pads was much better then the ebc pads.