Single Turbo Question
 

I have been looking at some turbos and I came across what looked like a good turbo but Id like to know what you think. I am looking for a good 650whp turbo that has the quickest spool time I will also be running methanol in the car. This first turbo is the turbo that was reccomended to me along with a kit that I would substitute the turbo out for this one. The second turbo kit is the one I found on my own and it seems pretty promising. Let me know what you guys think, I will be purchasing it at the beginning of the summer. The second turbo kit is the Powerhouse racing Stage 1 turbo kit with the dual ball bearing turbo

http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6262/3663

http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Templa...211&SearchYN=N

Pure methanol in the gas tank, or methanol injection? Just curious...
1) That SP turbo will not produce 650rwhp. Its spec is 670hp*.85=569.5rwhp (through a 6psd). ...and to get that 570rwhp, you'll need to run a LOT of boost ... possibly more than your meth injection kit alone could handle.
2) That PHR stage 1 kit is a 630rwhp kit (not 650rwhp), and same as my previous point, they likely ran a lot of boost with race fuel to get it. Probably about 30psi, I'd guess...which is significantly more boost than most meth injection kits can handle.

Are you willing to supplement the octane of your methanol injection with race fuel in your primary fuel tank?

Please remind me - are you going through a 6spd or an auto tranny?

My recommendations:
1) Get both the turbo and the kit from the same supplier (eg. Sound Performance).
2) Regardless of which supplier you choose, pick a slightly larger turbo, so you won't have to run as much boost to get 650rwhp. Sure, it'll lag a little bit more, but at least your engine will stay in one piece! I'd recommend something with approximately a 66mm or 67mm inducer.
3) The exact turbo honestly doesn't matter that much. Really! Anything with approximately the same inducer diameter and turbo design will spool roughly the same. You really won't notice a couple hundred rpm up or down while driving (a couple thousand, sure...but to get that big a difference, there's no way the turbo is the same size). After you square away your turbo upgrade, there are so many other things to worry about (eg driver training, tuning, traction, braking, driver training, precise boost control, etc., etc. (did I mention driver training? ;) )). Please believe me that in the grand scheme of things, unless you're professionally racing for $ with rigid regulations, a hundred or two rpm one way or another will be the last of your concerns. Besides, all of these racing turbos last about two or three years at most - consider them to be a semi consumeable like your engine's timing belt. These turbos are designed for maximal performance, not maximum reliabilty like an oem-spec turbo. Why spend six months analyzing a turbo choice when two years later you'll be swapping out for something different anyway?

Lastly, please remind us of your application? (i.e. drifting, daily driving, top speed, autocross, drag, daily driver, roadracing, burnout contests, etc.) If you're going to be running your Mkiv Supra in a professional competition, then sure - perhaps 100rpm of spool time would be relevant...

I am going to be running methanol injection (snow performances stage 3 kit) and I will primarily be daily driving it, road racing, and the occasional drag racing. I just need a good turbo that has a quick spool time. I have been looking at sound performances turbos because along with the turbo I could buy their quick spool valve to go with it. So basically I want to buy a full turbo kit with the fastest spooling turbo that will get me roughly 650whp.

I agree with your general approach. But the details about how you get there are critical. Your turbo's boost must not outflow the methanol's ability to suppress detonation, or your engine will quickly get ruined. A slightly larger turbo (with slightly more lag) allows you to run a bit less boost, thereby requiring less net octane. If you were willing to run pure race fuel, it wouldn't be as much of a concern.

Ok that's makes sense. Could you post a link to a turbo or turbo kit that would be best for my hp goal and application? I would run race fuel but its just so expensive and I'd rather just run methanol since a one gallon tank of meth injection will last longer then a tank of race fuel.

Agreed race fuel is an expensive option, but it's really the only way to safely squeeze absolutely every ounce of power out of a mid-size or large turbo in a gasoline engine.

Consider this complete turbo kit. If you get it tuned properly (including precise boost control), I'm certain you'll be happy with it:
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...93-98_Supra/28
Pick the .81 a/r and ball bearing (with water lines) options.

The only thing is that I really like that the turbo I originally looked at was a waterless dual ball bearing and that the turbo could have a quickspool valve mounted with it. I don't know much about how big a difference having the waterless turbo vs a turbo with water lines but it just seems better.

http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6262/3663

I could be wrong but it just seems like this turbo with the setup I described would spool more quickly then the ball bearing turbo that comes with it or is the difference between spool times very minimal?

Also I found this turbo on SoundPerformance and was wondering what you thought
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6266/3676

A water cooled turbo is more reliable, especially for extended hard driving like top speed runs and roadracing. Contrast that with a 10 second drag race where water-cooling the turbo doesn't do much good.

That's a 569.5rwhp turbo in your 1st link, and a 624.75rwhp turbo in the 2nd link. Neither is a 650rwhp turbo (through a 6spd), so neither one meets your power goal - right? Also, 624.75rwhp is right at the top of that 2nd one's capability range, probably running a lot of boost to get there. That boost level may be beyond your meth injection kit's ability to suppress detonation for. If you were willing to run race fuel, you could try that turbo at 40 or 50psi of boost, but with a limited flow meth injection kit, that won't work. Oh, and of course that 569.5rwhp will spool quicker, but so do the oem twins - right?

Yeah you are right. so then do you know a good turbo that is waterless and quick spool valve compatible that will give me my 650rwhp goal?

Along with the turbo kit and everything that will come with it, what else will I be needing to upgrade in order to run 650rwhp? I currently have 750cc injectors with a top feed, greddy 3 row FMIC, boost controller and the snow stage 3 methanol injection kit. I am looking at getting an AEM standalone when I buy the turbo kit. Is there anything else that I will need to upgrade?

Again, if you don't mind me asking, why waterless? A water-cooled turbo is significantly more reliable. The penny-pinching Toyota accountants wouldn't have allowed water-cooled oem twins if it wasn't fiscally beneficial.

1) Why didn't you get a complete fuel system? Those injectors are useless without all of the extra plumbing, pumps, fittings, relays, wiring, brackets, etc.
2) You don't need an AEM to run only 650rwhp.
3) If you're getting an AEM 100% for sure (for whatever reason), then get it installed and running perfectly with the oem twins first. Then put on the 100% complete fuel system and get that working with the AEM. After that put on the turbo kit. If you make all of the changes at once, among other things troubleshooting will be a nightmare.

You can run 650rwhp just fine with the oem maf and a simple 'piggyback' fuel controller. If anything, there's too much on your list already, other than the need for wider rims and tires to handle the additional horsepower (unless you want to just sit there spinning instead of going fast). Oh, the oem clutch won't handle 650rwhp. Let me know if you have any questions about clutch upgrades.

When I purchased the car, it already had new injectors installed.

I guess the reason I wanted that turbo was because of the quick spool valve. I already have the AEM Fuel Management System I didn't realize I didn't have to get a standalone for 650whp. I am currently running a Southbend Stage 3 clutch.

So then if I want to do 650whp, should I go with a 67mm turbo then like in the kit you sent me?
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...93-98_Supra/28

With that kit I will have to also buy a full fuel system then? Can you send me a link to a good system along with anything else I might need?

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastsupra (Post 102747) When I purchased the car, it already had new injectors installed…

Does it also have a second fuel pump and additional fuel line installed too?
Okay but you can do water lines AND a quick spool valve too…
Then why not sell it? Your best overall driveability will be if you stay with the oem ecu.
Okay, but what is the width of your rear rims?
Yes – any turbo around that size will give you the performance you’re looking for, and you won’t have to max out the boost to get it…which means your meth kit will work fine to suppress the detonation. I’d advise you to talk with the guys at Sound Performance – you can probably get a more ‘cutting edge’ GTX whiz-bang quad ball bearing with 17 unobtanium turbine blades, etc. but you’ll pay a premium for it. The 67mm is a solid, cost-effective way to get the performance+boost level characteristics you’re looking for.
Probably not, but I need to know more about exactly what is installed in your car right now.

As far as I know, it just has fuel injectors and a fuel rail upgrade. So should I just buy the fuel system kit from Sound Performance?

Ok so I will give them a call about a 67mm turbo kit that has the most up to date parts and I will probley just keep the fuel management then to avoid spending 2k more lol. I will have to get back to you on tire width I forget how wide I got but I know I got the widest I could fit.

That's one option, but it'd be a huge waste if you already have a second fuel pump. Can you verify? Just pull the fuel tank cover under the spare tire, and shoot us a photo.

I hope so. An 11.5" wide rim with 315s fit under the oem fenders without too much trouble at all.

I will take a picture once I get home from the Kentucky Derby but if I don't have a second fuel pump, would I just have to install a second pump instead of buying a fuel system? What else I guess would I need to be able to run 650whp through 750cc injectors and fuel rail?

I will let you know as well what size tires and rims I have once I get home. But all together does the 67mm turbo kit from Sound Performace look like a good choice to go with then? If so, what a/r should I go with? .68 or .81?

No there's more to it including a new fuel line, secondary fuel filter, relay, wiring, etc., etc. No worries, I'll get you through all of it.

To be conservative, I'd recommend the .81 a/r. It'll allow you to control boost spikes more consistently. Again, it's better to be safe than sorry - slightly slower spool-up is better than a blown engine.

Ok so I will problem look at getting that kit soon with the .81 a/r. How big of a difference will it be spooling wise compared to the .68 and also any idea at about what rpm the .81 will spool at?

So when I find out about the fuel pump and other lines etc. we can go from there then? Or based on what I told you any idea what I might start looking at purchasing?

Just a guess: the .68 a/r will spool at about 3800 rpm, and the .81 a/r will spool at about 4100 rpm. Ask Sound Performance to verify this prior to the purchase.

Step 1 we need to get your fuel system right. Please remove the spare tank cover and post photo(s). One step at a time - we'll do it all properly and plan a rock-solid upgrade path for you.

Are you going to install your AEM, or sell it and go with a simple 'piggyback' fuel controller? If you're going to sell the AEM, you can start this step in parallel. Again, here's a link to a good fuel controller that will get you to 650rwhp (6spd) no problem:
http://apexi-usa.com/shop/index.php/...s/afc-neo.html
http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Templa...926&SearchYN=N

I just placed the order for the turbo kit from sound performance for the 67mm turbo kit with the .81 ar and a quick spool valve to match.

I also took a look and had the shop my car is currently at verify but there is no secondary fuel pump just the fuel injectors and fuel rail. So should I go on ahead and buy a walbaro 255 fuel pump?

So then will my AEM Fuel Management not be enough and I will have to either go with the Apexi or full standalone?

Please do not buy a fuel pump. Again, you need a complete fuel system, so please do not peace-meal it together one component at a time. You'll need lots of fittings, electronics, mounting bracket, regulator(?), hoses, etc., etc. I need to know a lot more before we can decide what to do. Could you post some pictures of your engine bay? Also, could you post some pictures of exactly how your current fuel rail is plumbed?

Honestly the easiest thing to do would be to get an entire fuel system from Sound Performance, and then ask them if they can delete the fuel rail and injectors for a reduced price. This still isn't a perfect solution because we don't know exactly what size & thread fittings go into your fuel rail. Even easier would be for you to remove your current fuel rail and injectors, sell them, and then put in the entire Sound Performance fuel system, front-to-back. However, that's probably not the most cost-effective...so let me know your tolerance for work/rework and cost and we'll figure out exactly what to do.

Please send me information on the AEM "Fuel Management" unit that you have. A link to the AEM website is fine.

I think then what I will probley do is to just buy the fuel system from sound performance just so then I know I am getting everything I need and everything will match up and work in unison without having to second guess. Is the fuel kit from sound performance include everything that I will need?

Link to the AEM:
http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Templa...202&SearchYN=N

Yes.
Sorry thought you had the full AEM standalone. That AEM fuel controller will work fine for 650rwhp (6spd).

Ok sweet so I will purchase the fuel system tomorrow and will I need anything else? Like will I need to get camshafts or some kind of new electronic or anything? Yeah I wish I had the full standalone that would be great haha.

Also with the fuel system should I just select getting the 880cc injectors since they are no additional cost?

I ordered the 67mm turbo kit and I got a call saying that I will be getting the F1 manifold since the other is out of date.

I also purchased the sp fuel system with the 880cc injectors. Will I need to get camshafts like the 264 HKS cams? Also do you by chance know if the AEM FIC has a 2 step function?

The oem cams will allow you to put out 650rwhp...just barely. You'll probably have an easier time of it with 264s.

Apologies - I don't have experience with the AEM FIC. Hopefully another forum member has?

Ok I will purchase the HKS 264 camshafts then just so I don't have to worry. Also, will the 880cc injectors be fine for 650rwhp? Or should I order the 1000cc injectors?

880s are more than large enough.

Ok thanks! I'm gonna run 20lbs on the stock twins for now until I can get the meth kit installed, how much race fuel should I add into the tank to run that much? I have 118 torco race fuel

GREAT QUESTION! I absolutely LOVE help doing this kind of thing to keep my brothers' Supra engines safe. :drool:

I'll assume you're running Torco Orange, per this chart:
http://torcoracefuel.net/2-docs/torco-specs.jpg

Let's figure it out this way, just for fun:

• 93 Octane pump gas is about 88 MON*, per the link below.
• Your 118 Torco is a true 118 MON (assuming the fuel is fresh).
• You can run 15psi of boost safely on the stock twins with 93 octane (88 MON) fuel.
• With pure 118 Torco, you'd be able to run at least 32psi, assuming you could get the oem twins to push that much boost. (You could run even more boost at that MON level, with a bigger turbo that's more efficient at high boost levels).

With those four data points, here's your scale:

Boost Octane
15..........88.0
16..........89.8
17..........91.5
18..........93.3
19..........95.1
20.........96.8
21..........98.6
22..........100.4
23..........102.1
24..........103.9
25..........105.6
26..........107.4
27..........109.2
28..........110.9
29..........112.7
30..........114.5
31..........116.2
32..........118.0

Now, assuming you fill the *entire* 17 gallon fuel tank up, and you want a 96.8 target octane, I calculate 12 gallons of "93" and 5 gallons of 118. I'll leave it up to anyone in the forum to double-check my math.

So pull up to the pump with the needle below "E", and put exactly 12 gallons in. Then dump in a 5-gallon gas can of fresh Torco 118, and run 20lbs of boost all day long, with every confidence that youre engine will be perfectly safe. Maybe take a few fairly hard corners before boosting, just to slosh the fuels around in the fuel tank to get them mixed really well. Note that the longer you run your car with that tank of fuel (even at idle), the more it will get mixed by the fuel system's recirculation.

* Search for: "Premium" or "Super unleaded" gasoline in US (10% ethanol blend)"

Wow thats an insane amount of great information! Thanks a ton! Maybe I will run a full tank of race gas a see how it feels ;) Also, if you do run race gas even if its only 5 gallons, do you need to get your car tuned for it? Or can you just dump it in and drive?

Please keep in mind the power comes from the boost, and not from the octane. The additional octane is only there to prevent detonation.

No need for re-tuning when adding race fuel. It burns like regular gasoline, because it is regular gasoline - just gasoline with a high octane. However, if you were to (for example) dump methanol into your gas tank, that would require re-tuning.

Just dump it in and drive.

Ok sweet :) Im going to have to put in a full tank of race fuel and feel the power ;)

One last thing about octane and boost, when I run my methanol injection kit with 93 octane gas in my tank, about what octane will my fuel be? Like on your chart you posted, how much boost would I be able to run?

I'll assume this is the kit you're planning to run:
http://www.snowperformance.net/stage...st-cooler.html

I'll also assume you're planning to run EITHER:
- A 50-50 mix of pure Torco methanol and distilled water
..-OR-
- Snow Performance "Boost Juice"

HOWEVER, even knowing those variables, all I can do is give you a decent guess. My best guess is that you'll be fine up to about 22psi...which is about a 'net' 100 MON. Please only take this as a rough estimate, and carefully tune your max boost with the methanol kit, ideally using data logging from your knock sensors. When you figure out the exact answer, please post back here - I'm very curious!

Lastly, I'd also recommend you mix something like this with the methanol+water:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=84&pcid=12
OR
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/index.h...duct&ID=349107
OR
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...catid=2&iid=26

Yepp thats the kit I'm running and I will be running Boost Juice.

So Would 25lbs be out of the question? Why should I add those to my tank?

25psi may be possible but I wouldn't start there. I'd suggest starting your tuning process at 15psi, be sure your methanol is spraying, and go up from there one or two psi at a time while checking your knock sensors on each run. You should also tie the methanol kit's low-level sensor in the methanol tank into your ecu/piggyback/etc. if possible - to (for example) auto limit boost or auto retard timing when the methanol runs out.

The upper cylinder lubes are to help protect the injectors and upper cylinder/head components from the potentially harsh/corrosive effects of methanol.

I just purchased the Sound Performance fuel system with the 255 dual walbro pumps and 880cc injectors and I was just wondering about how much power my setup will be able to handle. Also, will a Greddy 3 row intercooler be able to handle 700whp or will i need to upgrade it?. Last and final question, how do you calculate how much boost you can run on pump gas safely?

These injectors will be good for at least 850rwhp (6spd), with proper tuning. Your GReddy 3-row will handle 700rwhp (6spd) just fine.

Although you can't easily calculate precisely how much boost you can run with a given octane of gasoline, you can get 'in the ballpark' ... after that, it's best to use data logging of your knock sensors to determine the real number. Also recall that octane degrades over time, so you can run more boost with fresh fuel than you can with fuel that's six months old. The real calculations use difficult-to-collect data points like cylinder pressure and the temperature of the metal in the spark plug.

Please take a look at this post (above) for a set of approximate boost-to-octane ratios:
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/102902-post29.html
In that chart, you see that pump gas is only 88MON, which is only good for about 15psi. Of course, you'll get more power at 15psi with a 700rwhp turbo than you will with the stock twins. However, above 15psi you need to use the data from your knock sensors to ensure you're not damaging your engine. The only other alternative is to keep raising boost until you blow up an engine (or significantly reduce it's compression/leakdown numbers), and then next time (and $4000 later, including parts and labor) don't run that much boost. ;)

I have been hearing a lot about people putting heat blankets on their turbos, would you recommend doing something like this?

yes, it helps protect the other engine components from the heat (including/especially the intake)

Since I am upgrading to a single turbo and will probley be running around 700-750whp, should I buy a Intake Manifold? Also, should I increase my rpm limit to lets say 7500 or is it fine for where its at?