Stock Block

[Dboz]

whats with this 20-40PSI talk.. why do you care so much getting an riduculas amount of PSI on such a crappy turbo.. also to get that much PSI you will have to run high octane race fuel

do where the supra shines.. slap on one big turbo and gun it on the run.. just my 2 cents

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by Dboz

just a question

whats the difference of the the CT26 turbo from a MR2 and a CT26 from a supra..

the CT26 from a MR2 is junk IMO.. CT20B is the 3rd gen 3sgte turbo and that still cant do more then 300whp.. on a 3sgte

Maybe that's partly why two of them together won't flow more than about 200rwhp above stock when the boost is raised...

Btw, upon further research, it turns out that SKILMATIC was misinformed about yet another item - the 2jz-gte's oem twins are CT12B turbos (not CT26s).

Originally Posted by Dboz

whats with this 20-40PSI talk.. why do you care so much getting an riduculas amount of PSI on such a crappy turbo..

Well, I agree that 40psi on the oem twins is rediculous, but 20psi from them is a walk in the park. They may be relatively small, and perhaps not optimally efficient at high boost levels, but they'll push 20psi (and more) with a good degree of reliability.

Originally Posted by Dboz

...also to get that much PSI you will have to run high octane race fuel...

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Dboz

...do where the supra shines.. slap on one big turbo and gun it on the run.. just my 2 cents

That makes sense as well, but note that with 'only' 450rwhp a bpu++++ Mkiv Supra is still an awesome vehicle. When driven where it really shines (on a roadrace course), an Mkiv Supra at 450rwhp with a good set of tires is easily enough car for most intermediate-level drivers.

[SKILMATIC]

It's also a book you CLEARLY have not read yourself. NO, a turbocharger does NOT mix any exhaust gas with the outside air. The hot side (turbine) and the cold side (compressor) are completely independent of each other except for a solid, oil-cooled&lubed shaft on bearings which connects the wheels on each side. 100% of the exhaust gas that enters the exhaust housing leaves through the exhaust pipe. You'll find that, and much more newbie info on turbocharging here:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo4.htm

Likewise, yes they are independant of each other however, it still mixes the gases together. Hx gases as you should know are much better combustibles than o2. Therefore engineers know this which is why a FI system is used to do this. Now granted the hot side doesnt thrust that exhaust gas back into the intake charge cause as we all know that would be fatal to the engine. However, with the help of the EGR and the turbo and a wbo2 the sane amount of mixed gases enter the intake. Why do you think when you install a turbo on any car your intake charge temp increases? If the 2 are completely dissasociated form each other then your intake temp should remain the same but this is not true. The increase in temp is generated form the mixed gases coming from your exhaust. Maybe you shoudl read your own link a little better.

Whether you're talking about 328,000pds of thrust from four PW-100's,

Now lets do the math on this one more time because I fear that you have missed this lesson. Now a PW-100 generates 41,000pds of thrust. If you have 4 of them you multiply 4x41000=164,000pds of thrust not 328,000. I have no idea where you are getting that number. When it comes to this analyzation they are congruent to each other.

I agree that you're stubborn. Imho you're also severely underinformed about turbocharging, which imho makes your conclusions about what's capable with a stock 2jz-gte and its oem twin turbos boarderline delusional.

Thats fair enough. However, I wouldn't go too far as to say I am delusional. Maybe optimistic is the key term here.

If the world was filled with closed-minded know-it-alls like you, I'm not sure I would. Fortunately, most other folks actually appreciate it when an experienced resource shares facts and hard-earned knowledge.

It is apparent to me that you dont know how to have a mature formidable discussion without letting your temper tantrums come into play. Maybe when one grows up and establishes an intellectual normality to have a proper discussion we can have a meaningful diatribe. Until then, better luck next time.

First of all, the oem 2jz-gte cams ARE already designed for boost. Secondly, the oem 2jz-gte valves and valve seats ARE already angle-cut. Lastly, whether you put 256, 264, 272 or 280 degree cams on the 2jz-gte head, you're still not going to get 650rwhp out of a stock 2jz-gte with stock twins alone, on any octane of regular or racing gasoline. Not in a million years.

Now what does this have to do with cam tuning? I mentioned nothing of angle cut valves other than I asked you in an earlier post what kind of machine did you use and you have yet to answer me. I beleive in my last post to this matter I was discussing cams. Was I not?

I agree with you on this one point BUT you said that a specific goal was attainable with a VERY tight set of conditions. With those conditions (650rwhp, oem 2jz-gte, stock bottom end, stock twins, no nos, gasoline), you've painted yourself into a corner - it just can't be done.

Show me where I have placed any conditions on what I originally said? I beleive I said you COULD get 640whp out of the stock twins. Show me where I said word for word "you could do this or that with such and such?" I beleive if you look back in my earlier posts you will not find one thing where I said this can happen with any boundaries. Now I have put some comment on how this COULD be attainable but I never maped out any boundaries on what I said. I would appreciate it if you would admit you are wrong there too.

Pig-headed=stubborn. It's a common definition...and if the shoe fits, wear it.

How old are you? 12? I would venture to say by your demeanor here you probably arent even old enough to drive a vehicle. Let alone own one; let alone own a supra.

The Wright brothers weren't constrained in their problem to try to force propellors that were designed to be most efficient producing 20 pounds of thrust if they needed 40...being engineers, they'd have known that spinning that propellor twice as fast won't produce twice the thrust.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You simply amaze me. You mean to tell me that if a fan spins faster and faster you dont feel the wind more and more? Just like if a turbine wheel spins faster and faster it doesnt create more pressure? Your last sentence basically says everything about you. You have not a clue on the actualities on how a turbo works or the familiararities of pressure and its effects. You see the faster a turbine wheel, fan, and propeller spins the more pressure and/or thrust it creates. This is like newbie info for common life dude. Kinda like when someone invented the wheel.

My posts are not intended as flames. They're intended to accurately and efficiently call out the misinformation you're attempting to spread. I encourage the scrutiny and involvement of the mods on this thread and any/all of my posts. I'd much rather be banned doing what I can to help the Supra community by calling out your misinformation ... than compromise my own integrity by pretending you didn't just lie about a Supra being able to make 650rwhp on stock twins and a stock block.

Well your fighting the wrong fight. One must chose his battles much more wisely. Furthermore, you can also point out misinformation in a much more integrity-like way. You only scrutinize yourself. IMHO, if one can have a meaningful mature discussion that one can make his point in a much more easier and deligent fashion.

FINALLY a glimmer of the REAL truth comes out!

Again I have never said in my first posts about any cost boundaries. Find this and I will admit I was wrong.

That's not what you said.

Of course its not because I havent said it yet. I am glad you can see the computer screen.

You said a '97 mkiv Supra Turbo, using it's oem twin turbos and a stock 2jz-gte block, "can easily squeeze out 650rwhp".

Ok and your point is? I am glad you can repeat what I said.

In the quote above, it appears that you've admitted that, for all you know for sure, you were completely wrong when you stated that rwhp figure. I sincerely hope this means that we can end our ""formidable discussion"" now.

You are the one who is completely wrong you said "you cant get 640whp out of the stock twins." Which in your later post you said you can. I stand by what I said. Just becasue you havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that it cant be done. You agreed with me sounds like a concensus to me.

Btw, upon further research, it turns out that SKILMATIC was misinformed about yet another item - the 2jz-gte's oem twins are CT12B turbos (not CT26s).

I was wandering when you were going to catch that. When you told me you owned a mk4 I didnt beleive you so then I wanted to talk some lingo. I wanted to test your knowledge of your own car you supposedly owned. Then you went on to claim you have built several bpu supras and etc etc. How come that a person who has supposedly built and modded several of these cars and then supposedly you own one yourself didnt catch that? I know the ct12's come with the 2jz, and the ct26's are on mr2's and the 7mg. Sounds liks someone just hit himself. hahahaa

[suprra_girl]

oh damnnn i thought someone wanted to stick 2 ct26's on their 2j.. i didn't realise someone was under the impression they were stock

ct26 from the 7m is superior to the 3sgte ones
steel shaft
slightly larger

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by suprra_girl

oh damnnn i thought someone wanted to stick 2 ct26's on their 2j.. i didn't realise someone was under the impression they were stock

ct26 from the 7m is superior to the 3sgte ones
steel shaft
slightly larger

Yeah apparenetly pwpanas didnt know which turbos are which. He told me he owned a mk4 supra. So then I tested him to see if he knew about the car. So I purposefully said ct26 turbos were on the tock 2jz and they could produce a lotof power. Then he proceeded to debate with me on the amount of power they could produce and he never once exclaimed that what I said was wrong. I figure him being a mk4 owner would have caught something so easy.

Then he finally realized that his supposed mk4 didnt come with ct26's stock but rather c12's. This is all kinda fishy to me seeing as pwpanas supposedly owns a mk4 and has built severla bpu's and all the sudden dicovered that his stock twins werent ct26's. I simply let flamers dig their own ditch. It works everytime.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Yeah apparenetly pwpanas didnt know which turbos are which. He told me he owned a mk4 supra. So then I tested him to see if he knew about the car.

Ok junior...whatever. Do you really think that anyone else on this thread is dumb enough to buy your "yeah I always knew that" BS? Prove that you knew the turbos are 12Bs. As you say "post a link". Without that proof, I'm the one that brought that information to this thread and educated you about it. Until then, I was letting you believe the oem twins were ct26s so you could try to explain why no one has ever made 650rwhp with them. Perhaps some of your original miscalculations were due to the fact that you were WRONG about the size of the 2jz-gte's stock twins. Ignorance is forgiveable, so fess up.

Fwiw, my own Supra no longer has ct12b's, since I've upgraded to a single turbo. Here's some more 'education' for you: when you upgrade an Mkiv Supra Turbo, there are only two reliable choices: you either max the oem twins (bpu), or you chuck them out (apu). After hundreds of unsuccessful attempts by Mkiv Supra owners, it's been determined that there's no reliable way to upgrade the ct12b's to anything larger, using the 2jz-gte's ct12b housings. The shaft is just too thin to support bigger wheels.

Now that I've clued you in to what they are, you now call the oem twins ct12b's. I simply call them too small.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...So I purposefully said ct26 turbos were on the tock 2jz and they could produce a lotof power. Then he proceeded to debate with me on the amount of power they could produce and he never once exclaimed that what I said was wrong. I figure him being a mk4 owner would have caught something so easy.

Dude you're the one that was confused (and apparently still are) about why an mk4 can't make 650rwhp with oem twins. Call them what you will, they won't make that much horsepower. Period.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Then he finally realized that his supposed mk4 didnt come with ct26's stock but rather c12's. This is all kinda fishy to me seeing as pwpanas supposedly owns a mk4 and has built severla bpu's and all the sudden dicovered that his stock twins werent ct26's. I simply let flamers dig their own ditch. It works everytime.

Riiiight. You go ahead and keep telling people that turbos mix intake & exhaust gasses and that the mk4's oem turbos can put out 40psi and we'll see who ends up in the ditch.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Likewise, yes they are independant of each other however, it still mixes the gases together. Hx gases as you should know are much better combustibles than o2. Therefore engineers know this which is why a FI system is used to do this...

Omg this is getting good. No, exhaust gas does NOT make a better combustible than O2. You need O2 for the fuel to burn!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Now granted the hot side doesnt thrust that exhaust gas back into the intake charge cause as we all know that would be fatal to the engine. However, with the help of the EGR and the turbo and a wbo2 the sane amount of mixed gases enter the intake...

No they don't! Again, read the information at the 'howstuffworks' link! Either the newbie information at that link is beyond your capability to comprehend, or you're spreading more BS to try to cover your ass here. Which is it?

A turbo is a simple device. The exhaust spins one side, which powers the simple air compressessor for the intake side. That's it!!!

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Why do you think when you install a turbo on any car your intake charge temp increases? If the 2 are completely dissasociated form each other then your intake temp should remain the same but this is not true. The increase in temp is generated form the mixed gases coming from your exhaust. Maybe you shoudl read your own link a little better...

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. The intake charge temp increases because of air friction with the compressor wheel spinning at 100K+ rpms. Give it up dude.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Now lets do the math on this one more time because I fear that you have missed this lesson. Now a PW-100 generates 41,000pds of thrust. If you have 4 of them you multiply 4x41000=164,000pds of thrust not 328,000. I have no idea where you are getting that number. When it comes to this analyzation they are congruent to each other...

Of course it does. And I'll say it slower this time so even you can understand. If you try to push a PW-100 PAST it's efficiency point by feeding it twice the amount of fuel, and spinning it twice as fast, it won't produce twice the amount of thrust. I'm using your analogy to show you why spinning the mkiv's oem twins twice as fast won't produce 40psi of boost like you said they could. This is almost funny...you've been proven completly wrong and you don't even realize it. I guess I'll have to explain things to you much more simply next time, using only very small words.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Thats fair enough. However, I wouldn't go too far as to say I am delusional. Maybe optimistic is the key term here...

No, delusional fits MUCH better. The current record is just slightly over 500rwhp. 525rwhp would be "optimistic". 650rwhp represents breaking the current record by over 25%! To put this in perspective, this would be the same as you claiming you could sprint the 100m dash in 7.5 seconds. It's a d@mn joke...and you're CLEARLY, at the very least, partly delusional.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...It is apparent to me that you dont know how to have a mature formidable discussion without letting your temper tantrums come into play. Maybe when one grows up and establishes an intellectual normality to have a proper discussion we can have a meaningful diatribe. Until then, better luck next time...

This has nothing to do with temper...it has to do with your refusal to acknowledge when you're wrong...and you've been proven wrong on three major points to anyone that has read this thread carefully.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Now what does this have to do with cam tuning? I mentioned nothing of angle cut valves other than I asked you in an earlier post what kind of machine did you use and you have yet to answer me. I beleive in my last post to this matter I was discussing cams. Was I not? ...

You said "You can get the most power from cam tuning. If you can get a cam that is specifically designed for boost which means the longest duration possible...", so therefore YOU brought up the question of cam durations and cam tuning. In response I said, and I say again, no matter how you tune your cam and no matter which cam you use, you won't get 650rwhp out of a stock 2jz-gte and it's oem twins alone. Get it????

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Show me where I have placed any conditions on what I originally said? I beleive I said you COULD get 640whp out of the stock twins. Show me where I said word for word "you could do this or that with such and such?" I beleive if you look back in my earlier posts you will not find one thing where I said this can happen with any boundaries. Now I have put some comment on how this COULD be attainable but I never maped out any boundaries on what I said. I would appreciate it if you would admit you are wrong there too...

I know you're trying to wiggle out of this one but you can't. Right here is where the conditions were firmed up and agreed to, YOUR post. YOU said "stock bottom end...with stock turbos...you can easily squeeze out 650rwhp". Those are the conditions and YOU set them.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...How old are you? 12? I would venture to say by your demeanor here you probably arent even old enough to drive a vehicle. Let alone own one; let alone own a supra...

Now who's the FLAMER, flamer? "Formidable discussion" my @ss ... Lol. Ever hear of T04R.com? Mkiv.com? Supraforums? Mkivforums.com? The mkiv mailing list? Whether you're 12 or not, you've been proven wrong about basic turbocharging technology, and your statements about 650rwhp with the 2jz-gte and it's stock twins have also been proven wrong. Grow up and admit it.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You mean to tell me that if a fan spins faster and faster you dont feel the wind more and more? Just like if a turbine wheel spins faster and faster it doesnt create more pressure? Your last sentence basically says everything about you. You have not a clue on the actualities on how a turbo works or the familiararities of pressure and its effects. You see the faster a turbine wheel, fan, and propeller spins the more pressure and/or thrust it creates. This is like newbie info for common life dude. Kinda like when someone invented the wheel...

What I said was that if you take ANY fan or ANY pump already working at the exact RPM where it is most efficient, and then double that RPM, you WILL NOT get double the flow. By spinning the device faster, you're forcing it beyond it's efficiency point...and beyond that point you get diminishing returns for rpm increases. This is one of the key reasons that you'll never get 40psi out of the 2jz-gte's oem twins...and why you'll never get a stock 2jz-gte, using only its oem twins, to produce 650rwhp.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Well your fighting the wrong fight. One must chose his battles much more wisely. Furthermore, you can also point out misinformation in a much more integrity-like way. You only scrutinize yourself. IMHO, if one can have a meaningful mature discussion that one can make his point in a much more easier and deligent fashion...

Quit trying to cover your ass with more misinformation...when you post misinformation out of ignorance, that's forgiveable. But when you intentionally post misinformation to try to cover your ass, that's just plain wrong. If you continue to do so, I'll be the one contacting the moderators.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Again I have never said in my first posts about any cost boundaries. Find this and I will admit I was wrong...

I agree that no cost boundaries have yet been specifically imposed on our "formidable discussion". On the other hand, I would suggest it is VERY relevant that Evilfurby probably does not intend to spend an unreasonable amount of $ trying to max out the horsepower of his stock twins on his future Mkiv Supra.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Of course its not because I havent said it yet. I am glad you can see the computer screen...Ok and your point is? I am glad you can repeat what I said...

Look braniac, you TRIED to wiggle your way out of this "formidable discussion" by saying "...if it was up to me I would just upgrade to one big turbo application...", because you KNOW that you're WRONG about making 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte bottom end and its oem twin turbos.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You are the one who is completely wrong you said "you cant get 640whp out of the stock twins." Which in your later post you said you can. I stand by what I said. Just becasue you havent seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that it cant be done. You agreed with me sounds like a concensus to me...

I did NOT say that you can get 640whp or 650whp out of the stock twins. Only YOU claimed that nonsense. If you MISREAD one of my posts, then quote it and I'll explain what I meant, again using very small words just for you.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...I was wandering when you were going to catch that. When you told me you owned a mk4 I didnt beleive you so then I wanted to talk some lingo. I wanted to test your knowledge of your own car you supposedly owned. Then you went on to claim you have built several bpu supras and etc etc. How come that a person who has supposedly built and modded several of these cars and then supposedly you own one yourself didnt catch that? I know the ct12's come with the 2jz, and the ct26's are on mr2's and the 7mg. Sounds liks someone just hit himself.

You made an ERROR assuming the stock twins were CT26s, in this post. As a result of that, together with your ignorance of turbocharging technology, you've dug yourself into a hole by claiming the 2jz-gte's stock twins can push 650rwhp.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by suprra_girl

oh damnnn i thought someone wanted to stick 2 ct26's on their 2j.. i didn't realise someone was under the impression they were stock...

Yup, Evilfurby asked about max power on stock twins, and then SKILMATIC started talking about how much power you can get from two ct26's right here:
http://www.toyota-supra.info/forums/...27&postcount=5
If I were to guess why his math was so off-base when he came up with his 650rwhp figure, it could be partly due to his mistaken impression that the 2jz-gte's stock twins are ct26s...

[SKILMATIC]

Ok junior...whatever. Do you really think that anyone else on this thread is dumb enough to buy your "yeah I always knew that" BS? Prove that you knew the turbos are 12Bs. As you say "post a link". Without that proof, I'm the one that brought that information to this thread and educated you about it.

Actually I didnt have to prove anything you did. You were the one who sat on your high horse and claimed you have a mk4 and built several of these cars. I just sat back and said "ok then lets see if he really does own one." I talked about somethign as so easy as the the turbo and considering you claimed you owned one you should have caught that little piece of information the first time you have seen it. But as you researched the internet which is all you can do you noticed that your supposed car didnt come with ct26's. This is just a priceless moment.

Dude you're the one that was confused (and apparently still are) about why an mk4 can't make 650rwhp with oem twins. Call them what you will, they won't make that much horsepower. Period.

But you as a supposed mk4 owner didnt even know what kind of turbos it came with stock. And knowing you built several of these cars is very disconcerting because the worst thing is having a mechanic that doesnt even know which turbo is which work on your car. But maybe they wont detonate.

Riiiight. You go ahead and keep telling people that turbos mix intake & exhaust gasses and that the mk4's oem turbos can put out 40psi and we'll see who ends up in the ditch.

And how many motors have you been through?

Omg this is getting good. No, exhaust gas does NOT make a better combustible than O2. You need O2 for the fuel to burn!

Yes you need oxygen but you ask any technician they will tell you that hx gases are better combustibles. So what in your humble opinion is the most combustible gas on planet earth? Just answer that. Stop reading links because you seem to only be a bookie. You need to get out and get a little greasy to really learn.

A turbo is a simple device. The exhaust spins one side, which powers the simple air compressessor for the intake side. That's it!!!

Again, if its so simple then how come it took mankind almost 4thousand years to invent? Again stop reading what you see on the internet.

[TRAFIK]

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp. It’s not impossible but who the hell would want to stress the car so much? Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02



Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,



How much are you pushing?

What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.