Stock Block

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp. It’s not impossible but who the hell would want to stress the car so much? Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02



Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,



How much are you pushing?

What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

As always I agree with you traffic. All I said was it is possible. Although i personally would just go to a big single turbo application I am just stating the possibilities.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

As always I agree with you traffic. All I said was it is possible. Although i personally would just go to a big single turbo application I am just stating the possibilities.

You're not stating possibilities, you're stating idiocies.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

I don’t really want to get into this hp battle (although very informational).
But I really don’t see the stock twins pushing that much psi and rwhp...

You're correct. They can't. Not even close.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...It’s not impossible...

Omg not you too!? It's not possible! Really! Not even close! Hundreds of people have invested thousands of $ and literally years of time. There's just no way to get them to push more than very close to 500rwhp. In fact just getting to about 450rwhp (bpu++++) already costs at least a thousand $ (probably a lot more), AND you have to have a low-mileage Supra to get even that high.

Upon what data do you base your statement?

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...but who the hell would want to stress the car so much?...

It really doesn't "stress the car" at all. With a mid-size or large single turbo and race fuel, an Mkiv Supra can handle 650rwhp without any problem.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...Pushing the stock tt limits it’s not good even with bpu's. I would probably start thinking of single or bigger tt upgrade around 500. Just my $0.02...

I agree that pushing the oem twins to their limit of 450+rwhp will be hard on them. Getting them past 500rwhp is near-impossible; getting them to 650rwhp is both impossible and rediculous.

Originally Posted by TRAFIK

...Just for my info…anybody who is running stock twins,

How much are you pushing? What is your limit? Where would you say “No More”.

When I was running stock twins, I made about 400rwhp before I went to a single turbo, and that was full bpu+, with about 20 or 21psi of boost and race fuel. It doesn't matter where I would say "No More", because the stock twins do it for you. They say "No More" at about 25psi of boost and about 475rwhp at average-best, assuming your 2jz-gte is in very good condition and your turbos are low-mileage (ideally, less than 25,000 miles on them).

[Dboz]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

That makes sense as well, but note that with 'only' 450rwhp a bpu++++ Mkiv Supra is still an awesome vehicle. When driven where it really shines (on a roadrace course), an Mkiv Supra at 450rwhp with a good set of tires is easily enough car for most intermediate-level drivers.

im not starting an arguement here.. but

a mk4 supra on a real race course was always raced with a different engine.. 3sgte in most of them.. and now 3uz-fe v8's..

partially because the races have hp limits.. 600ish hp
but the engine is lighter and their torque is much more useable then a 2jz's
the corolla rally car was pushing out 300whp with 650 lbs of torque =D

thats why i think a 2jz mk4 supra is the best at on "the run" races on highways.. you ll smoke so many people haha

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by Dboz

im not starting an arguement here.. but

a mk4 supra on a real race course was always raced with a different engine.. 3sgte in most of them.. and now 3uz-fe v8's..

partially because the races have hp limits.. 600ish hp
but the engine is lighter and their torque is much more useable then a 2jz's
the corolla rally car was pushing out 300whp with 650 lbs of torque =D

thats why i think a 2jz mk4 supra is the best at on "the run" races on highways.. you ll smoke so many people haha

I agree with you about the 2jz-gte - given the horsepower restrictions in those races, it's just not the optimal choice. On the other hand, you have to admit the vast majority of the drivers that have roadraced the mk4 hard core with 3sgte's are at a skill level quite a bit better than intermediate-level.

[TONY!]

Folks, can we try really hard to keep it as civil as can be.

Thanks.

I really don't want to lock this thread up.



BTW Happy New Year to all!

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Actually I didnt have to prove anything you did. You were the one who sat on your high horse and claimed you have a mk4 and built several of these cars...

Listen bub, YOU started all this by trying to tell Evilfurby that he could make 650rwhp with the stock twins of the '97 mkiv he's planning to buy. My only role here is to correct your misinformation.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...I just sat back and said "ok then lets see if he really does own one." I talked about somethign as so easy as the the turbo and considering you claimed you owned one you should have caught that little piece of information the first time you have seen it. But as you researched the internet which is all you can do you noticed that your supposed car didnt come with ct26's. This is just a priceless moment...

I agree it's priceless. It's priceless because you're finally coming to realize you'll never make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte and it's stock twins.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...But you as a supposed mk4 owner didnt even know what kind of turbos it came with stock. And knowing you built several of these cars is very disconcerting because the worst thing is having a mechanic that doesnt even know which turbo is which work on your car. But maybe they wont detonate...

The ONLY replacement for these turbos comes from Toyota. In fact, the front ct12b on the 2jz-gte has different exhaust and compressor housings than the rear one! Again, any good mkiv Supra meachanic will tell you that you can either replace or dump the oem twins. They are not interchangeable with anything else in the "CT" product line.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Yes you need oxygen but you ask any technician they will tell you that hx gases are better combustibles. So what in your humble opinion is the most combustible gas on planet earth? Just answer that. Stop reading links because you seem to only be a bookie. You need to get out and get a little greasy to really learn...

Any technician that tells you that exhaust gasses are more combustible than the O2 in air, that technician deserves to loose their status. Oh, and although Hydrogen is very combustible, 1) it still needs O2 to burn, and 2) pure Hydrogen does not exist in the exhaust stream. Turbos don't mix exhaust gasses with intake gasses. Get a grip.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Again, if its so simple then how come it took mankind almost 4thousand years to invent? Again stop reading what you see on the internet.

About the only thing I should probably stop reading on the internet is your posts. The turbocharger was invented in 1905...the technology is over 100 years old, and it's a simple air pump, powered by exhaust gasses. I'm certain it's you that needs to read MORE before you post any more misinformation.

[SKILMATIC]

Originally Posted by pwpanas

You're not stating possibilities, you're stating idiocies.

Really? So your saying THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING hasnt happened yet you are automatically going to rule that out as never being possible? Gee I am so glad Einstein didnt have the same views you do when thinking about constructing the a-bomb. Furthermore, I am so glad every single inventor didnt have the same pessimistic views as you do. The supra has always been gravely underestimated in everything it does. And every single time when someone puts their mind to bringing out the best in the supra they have exceeded everyones expectations. You should have a little more respect for your supra as you claim you own. IMHO, someone that owns a supra would never have the pessimistic views such as yourself.

Omg not you too!? It's not possible! Really! Not even close! Hundreds of people have invested thousands of $ and literally years of time. There's just no way to get them to push more than very close to 500rwhp. In fact just getting to about 450rwhp (bpu++++) already costs at least a thousand $ (probably a lot more), AND you have to have a low-mileage Supra to get even that high.

BWAHAHA, what does mileage have to do with anything? I am assuming you are talking about mileage on the car not the engine. Because you said low mileage supra and not the motor. Well hate to break it to you mileage has nothing to do with power unless its on the motor. You could have a supra with 300,000original miles on it and just installed a rebuilt 2jz in it and it will and can be very powerful.

Upon what data do you base your statement?

Likewise.

It really doesn't "stress the car" at all. With a mid-size or large single turbo and race fuel, an Mkiv Supra can handle 650rwhp without any problem.

You mean to tell me that 650whp has the same stress tensions as having 400whp? Again, your brilliance amazes me. Now yes granted IMHO the motor can handle alot of power with little to no problems, but it is a given fact that the more power you put out the more stress the motor goes under.

I agree that pushing the oem twins to their limit of 450+rwhp will be hard on them. Getting them past 500rwhp is near-impossible; getting them to 650rwhp is both impossible and rediculous.

Not impossible. Improbable is the correct term. Nothing is impossible in this genre.

When I was running stock twins, I made about 400rwhp before I went to a single turbo, and that was full bpu+, with about 20 or 21psi of boost and race fuel. It doesn't matter where I would say "No More", because the stock twins do it for you. They say "No More" at about 25psi of boost and about 475rwhp at average-best, assuming your 2jz-gte is in very good condition and your turbos are low-mileage (ideally, less than 25,000 miles on them).

You SURE YOU OWN A MK4?

[TONY!]

For the sake of the forum, I am going to lock this up.

Very good points were made and I think that the thread starter's original questions was pretty much taken care of.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or concerns; shoot me a PM.

[pwpanas]

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

Really? So your saying THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING hasnt happened yet you are automatically going to rule that out as never being possible? Gee I am so glad Einstein didnt have the same views you do when thinking about constructing the a-bomb. Furthermore, I am so glad every single inventor didnt have the same pessimistic views as you do. The supra has always been gravely underestimated in everything it does. And every single time when someone puts their mind to bringing out the best in the supra they have exceeded everyones expectations. You should have a little more respect for your supra as you claim you own. IMHO, someone that owns a supra would never have the pessimistic views such as yourself...

It's not pessimistic, it's realistic. The inventor of the a-bomb wasn't on the same type of budget as someone like Evilfurby looking at maxing out the stock block, stock twins horsepower of a used Supra that he's planning to buy. Something tells me the US Government had just a few more resources to throw at a-bomb development lol. For any reasonable amount of $, you're not going to make 650rwhp using the stock twins alone. In fact, I'll allow you an unreasonable amound of $. You'll never do it even if you spend $25,000.00 on the problem (not counting the cost of the car itself). Is that a reasonable budget, iyo?

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

... what does mileage have to do with anything? I am assuming you are talking about mileage on the car not the engine. Because you said low mileage supra and not the motor. Well hate to break it to you mileage has nothing to do with power unless its on the motor. You could have a supra with 300,000original miles on it and just installed a rebuilt 2jz in it and it will and can be very powerful...

I'm talking about mileage on the turbos. They just don't boost as well if they've got a lot of mileage on them.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Likewise...

I've already told you. I base my data on my own work on my own MK4, my work on other Mk4's, as well as the work of the dozens and dozens of other Mk4 owners that have worked on this problem and posted their results. Now, upon what do you base your BS 650rwhp on stock block & stock twins figure? Faulty mathematics? Lol.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You mean to tell me that 650whp has the same stress tensions as having 400whp? Again, your brilliance amazes me. Now yes granted IMHO the motor can handle alot of power with little to no problems, but it is a given fact that the more power you put out the more stress the motor goes under...

No one is arguing with you there, but let's get back to the topic - is your assertion still that you can feasibly make 650rwhp with a stock 2jz-gte block and it's stock twin turbos?

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...Not impossible. Improbable is the correct term. Nothing is impossible in this genre...

Prove it then! This isn't a matter of odds like rolling some dice at Las Vegas. This is a matter of how much air those two little 2jz-gte oem twins can pump. They simply can't pump enough air to produce that much horsepower. It's beyond the capability of those devices, therefore it's not improbable, it's literally impossible.

Now if we go beyond the conditions of your earlier posts and add a big single turbo or a big shot of NO2+fuel to make the horsepower, then of course it can be done. But again, on oem twins and oem block alone, there's just no way.

Originally Posted by SKILMATIC

...You SURE YOU OWN A MK4?

Yes. I'm also sure that YOU shouldn't be posting on MK4 threads, because you're completely uninformed and unqualified to answer any questions about it.